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Re: [[XTalk] Re: Ebionites]

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  • Eric Laupot
    Sakari Häkkinen wrote: [snip] ... -- (SH) Briefly: By this term I meant those Jews, who believed in Jesus. ... to a definition.
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 1, 2000
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      "Sakari H�kkinen" <sakari.hakkinen@...> wrote:


      In another message Laupot wrote:
      > -------- (EL) That's right. Furthermore, I never
      > use the term "Christian Jews," because I was unable to
      > define it. How would you define it?

      -- (SH) Briefly: By this term I meant those Jews,
      who believed in Jesus.

      ----------- (E.L.) Well, okay, but we're no closer
      to a definition. What does "believe in Jesus" mean?
      Believe in him as God incarnate, eschatological
      Messiah, prophet, guerrilla leader, or what?

      [Eric Laupot wrote:]

      > ------- (EL) Could you explain this? The Christiani
      > were *very* closely connected with the Second Temple,
      > and Gentiles weren't even allowed into the Temple. If
      > the Christiani were non-Jewish, did they have
      > a long distance relationship with the Temple?

      --- (SH) No, this is not what I meant. It just came to my mind that
      we are discussing on Tacitus' view of "Christiani", not
      historical facts.

      ------ (E.L.) Tacitus is not historical? Do you
      have someone better?

      -- (SH) How well did Tacitus know what were the
      differences between Jewish sects?
      Could it be that he shared
      the common knowledge of the time that the Christians were
      separated or at least had their origins in Judaism and that
      the temple was the center of Jewish religion? It seems to me
      that his words are quite understandable on this

      ----------- (E.L.) Tacitus' seemingly "Christian"
      words may seem quite comfortable to us in this sense
      today, but the reality is that Tacitus never mentions
      the (Pauline) Christians in any of his extant works. Nor
      did the Pauline Christians, as a sect, participate in
      the first Jewish War. These are your modern ideas
      projected onto Tacitus, and this explains why it's
      important to read my article: the definition I
      arrived at regarding the distinction between
      "Christians" and "Christiani" does *not* involve any a
      priori assumptions (as you seem to believe) but
      rather involves conclusions drawn from my study of
      Tacitus. Without reading the article, one cannot
      understand how I arrived at these conclusions and

      -- (SH) but I must admit I am not an expert on

      Best wishes,

      Sakari Hakkinen, PhD
      University of Helsinki
      Department of Biblical Studies


      Eric Laupot
      PO Box 286510
      New York, NY 10128
      Tel. (212) 744-9450

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