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Re: [XTalk] James and the Ebionites

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  • Sakari Häkkinen
    ... Missions said: In ... leave the city when ... after it was ... Syria and became ... Psalms for God s ... Salamis in Cypus about ... name; they replied ...
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 1, 2000
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      Richard Anderson wrote:

      > In response to Sakari H�kkinen:
      >
      > Michael Goulder in St. Paul v. St. Peter, A Tale of Two
      Missions said: "In
      > time the Jerusalem church fell on evil days. They had to
      leave the city when
      > the Jewish War came (66) and were not allowed to return
      after it was
      > destroyed in 70. They were scattered to various centres in
      Syria and became
      > knwon as the 'Ebionim, the Poor, a term oftern used in the
      Psalms for God's
      > faithful, persecuted remnant. Epiphanius, Bishop of
      Salamis in Cypus about
      > 370, questioned some of them and asked them about their
      name; they replied
      > that they were descended from the Jerusalem church. and
      their forebears had
      > become poor by sharing their money in the days of Acts.
      Epiphanius a harsh
      > and untruthful man himself though that they were lying:
      they were called
      > Ebinities after their wicked first treacher Ebion
      (Panarion, 30.15.4). But
      > we may think they were telling the truth: there never was
      such a persion as
      > Ebion. end quote.
      >

      Richard,
      I know well Goulder's book and his writings on the topic
      elsewhere. Indeed, in my dissertation I criticize him just
      for building a theory on weak evidence (I have a whole
      chapter on Goulder). One of the problems of Goulder's book
      is that he does not use footnotes. It would be fair to
      express what are the sources. Goulder uses all the same
      patristic material, which I claim to know quite well, and I
      am quite sure he has nothing more. His book is quite close
      to what I meant in an earlier message: "For this
      reason, it is not possible to reconstruct the way of the
      earliest "christian" community simply by referring to the
      way of life of Ebionites (which has been done sometimes in
      scholarship!)."
      On the other hand, there are some such descriptions of
      Ebionite belief in Goulder's book, which I have found very
      useful and which are on more solid ground, e. g. his
      description of the "possession Christology" by Ebionites.
      BTW, Michael D. Goulder has my book, but I am not sure if he
      can read Finnish better than the American scholars... Well,
      he visited us some years ago, but his ability of Finnish did
      not include too many words.

      Best wishes,

      Sakari Hakkinen, PhD
      University of Helsinki
      Department of Biblical Studies
      sakari.hakkinen@...
      http://www.helsinki.fi/teol/hyel/henkilo/henkilo.html
    • Mark Goodacre
      First of all, apologies for sending a private message to the list. I think it s the first time I ve ever done that, so I m really annoyed with myself! I
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 1, 2000
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        First of all, apologies for sending a private message to the list.
        I think it's the first time I've ever done that, so I'm really
        annoyed with myself! I suppose I hadn't realised that Xtalk
        was set up so that the automatic reply goes to the list instead
        of the individual, but I still should have checked.

        Second, a brief comment:

        On 1 Dec 2000, at 15:32, Sakari Häkkinen wrote:

        > I know well Goulder's book and his writings on the topic
        > elsewhere. Indeed, in my dissertation I criticize him just
        > for building a theory on weak evidence (I have a whole
        > chapter on Goulder). One of the problems of Goulder's book
        > is that he does not use footnotes. It would be fair to
        > express what are the sources.

        Well, Goulder is in good company here! His mentor Austin
        Farrer was also criticized for not using footnotes in his work.
        But in the case of _A Tale of Two Missions_ (_St Paul vs St
        Peter_ in the U.S.), it seems to have been a self-conscious
        decision to publish a popular-level book before writing the
        more serious, academic defences. Many of the theories in
        _Tale of Two Missions_ have, as you know, now appeared in
        various articles in journals and Festschrifts and Goulder has a
        monograph on 1 and 2 Corinthians, focusing on the Paul v.
        Peter thesis, published soon by Hendrickson's -- he is
        currently working through the proofs.

        Mark
        --------------------------------------
        Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
        Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
        University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
        Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

        http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
        Homepage
        http://www.ntgateway.com
        The New Testament Gateway
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