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RE: [XTalk] James and the Ebionites

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  • Richard Anderson
    In response to Sakari Häkkinen: Michael Goulder in St. Paul v. St. Peter, A Tale of Two Missions said: In time the Jerusalem church fell on evil days. They
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 1 4:57 AM
      In response to Sakari Häkkinen:


      Michael Goulder in St. Paul v. St. Peter, A Tale of Two Missions said: "In
      time the Jerusalem church fell on evil days. They had to leave the city when
      the Jewish War came (66) and were not allowed to return after it was
      destroyed in 70. They were scattered to various centres in Syria and became
      knwon as the 'Ebionim, the Poor, a term oftern used in the Psalms for God's
      faithful, persecuted remnant. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in Cypus about
      370, questioned some of them and asked them about their name; they replied
      that they were descended from the Jerusalem church. and their forebears had
      become poor by sharing their money in the days of Acts. Epiphanius a harsh
      and untruthful man himself though that they were lying: they were called
      Ebinities after their wicked first treacher Ebion (Panarion, 30.15.4). But
      we may think they were telling the truth: there never was such a persion as
      Ebion. end quote.

      Richard H. Anderson
    • Sakari Häkkinen
      ... Missions said: In ... leave the city when ... after it was ... Syria and became ... Psalms for God s ... Salamis in Cypus about ... name; they replied ...
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 1 5:32 AM
        Richard Anderson wrote:

        > In response to Sakari H�kkinen:
        >
        > Michael Goulder in St. Paul v. St. Peter, A Tale of Two
        Missions said: "In
        > time the Jerusalem church fell on evil days. They had to
        leave the city when
        > the Jewish War came (66) and were not allowed to return
        after it was
        > destroyed in 70. They were scattered to various centres in
        Syria and became
        > knwon as the 'Ebionim, the Poor, a term oftern used in the
        Psalms for God's
        > faithful, persecuted remnant. Epiphanius, Bishop of
        Salamis in Cypus about
        > 370, questioned some of them and asked them about their
        name; they replied
        > that they were descended from the Jerusalem church. and
        their forebears had
        > become poor by sharing their money in the days of Acts.
        Epiphanius a harsh
        > and untruthful man himself though that they were lying:
        they were called
        > Ebinities after their wicked first treacher Ebion
        (Panarion, 30.15.4). But
        > we may think they were telling the truth: there never was
        such a persion as
        > Ebion. end quote.
        >

        Richard,
        I know well Goulder's book and his writings on the topic
        elsewhere. Indeed, in my dissertation I criticize him just
        for building a theory on weak evidence (I have a whole
        chapter on Goulder). One of the problems of Goulder's book
        is that he does not use footnotes. It would be fair to
        express what are the sources. Goulder uses all the same
        patristic material, which I claim to know quite well, and I
        am quite sure he has nothing more. His book is quite close
        to what I meant in an earlier message: "For this
        reason, it is not possible to reconstruct the way of the
        earliest "christian" community simply by referring to the
        way of life of Ebionites (which has been done sometimes in
        scholarship!)."
        On the other hand, there are some such descriptions of
        Ebionite belief in Goulder's book, which I have found very
        useful and which are on more solid ground, e. g. his
        description of the "possession Christology" by Ebionites.
        BTW, Michael D. Goulder has my book, but I am not sure if he
        can read Finnish better than the American scholars... Well,
        he visited us some years ago, but his ability of Finnish did
        not include too many words.

        Best wishes,

        Sakari Hakkinen, PhD
        University of Helsinki
        Department of Biblical Studies
        sakari.hakkinen@...
        http://www.helsinki.fi/teol/hyel/henkilo/henkilo.html
      • Mark Goodacre
        First of all, apologies for sending a private message to the list. I think it s the first time I ve ever done that, so I m really annoyed with myself! I
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 1 7:48 AM
          First of all, apologies for sending a private message to the list.
          I think it's the first time I've ever done that, so I'm really
          annoyed with myself! I suppose I hadn't realised that Xtalk
          was set up so that the automatic reply goes to the list instead
          of the individual, but I still should have checked.

          Second, a brief comment:

          On 1 Dec 2000, at 15:32, Sakari Häkkinen wrote:

          > I know well Goulder's book and his writings on the topic
          > elsewhere. Indeed, in my dissertation I criticize him just
          > for building a theory on weak evidence (I have a whole
          > chapter on Goulder). One of the problems of Goulder's book
          > is that he does not use footnotes. It would be fair to
          > express what are the sources.

          Well, Goulder is in good company here! His mentor Austin
          Farrer was also criticized for not using footnotes in his work.
          But in the case of _A Tale of Two Missions_ (_St Paul vs St
          Peter_ in the U.S.), it seems to have been a self-conscious
          decision to publish a popular-level book before writing the
          more serious, academic defences. Many of the theories in
          _Tale of Two Missions_ have, as you know, now appeared in
          various articles in journals and Festschrifts and Goulder has a
          monograph on 1 and 2 Corinthians, focusing on the Paul v.
          Peter thesis, published soon by Hendrickson's -- he is
          currently working through the proofs.

          Mark
          --------------------------------------
          Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
          Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
          University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
          Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

          http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
          Homepage
          http://www.ntgateway.com
          The New Testament Gateway
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