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Jesus and wine

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  • Tom Barnes
    I don t know if this question is off topic and if it is I sincerely apologize. I have recently become interested in the search for the historical Jesus. A
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 2, 2000
      I don't know if this question is off topic and if it is I sincerely apologize.  I have recently become interested in the search for the historical Jesus.  A professor started me and now the door will not shut; I want to or at least try to know all that I can.  Was the water that Jesus turned to wine a wine that was used for intoxicating purposes?
      Thomas G. Barnes
      Philadelphia, PA
      Temple University
    • Andrew T. Dolan, Ph.D. (cand.)
      I find John Meiers analysis of the Cana account persuasive. Meier argues that the entire pericope shows the hand of the Johannine redactor. Some of his
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 3, 2000

        I find John Meier’s analysis of the Cana account persuasive.  Meier argues that the entire pericope shows the hand of the Johannine redactor.  Some of his points relevant to the matter of the water turned wine are as follows:

         

        1.       Jesus’ implied refusal (2.4) to Mary’s implied request, her continued expectation of his positive response (2.5), and his final, overabundant response (2.7-8) fit John’s emphasis that Jesus is always in control

        a.       Jesus acts when no request is made (5.1-9; 6.1-15; 6.16-21; 9.1-7)

        b.       when Jesus is explicitly or implicitly asked for a miracle, a pattern emerges:

                                                           i.      a petitioner makes an implied or explicit request for a miracle (2.3; 4.47; 11.3)

                                                         ii.      Jesus at first seems to refuse (2.4; 4.48; 11.4)

                                                        iii.      the petitioner doesn’t lose faith that Jesus will act (2.5; 4.49; 11.21-27)

                                                        iv.      Jesus does respond to the persistent faith—in a way more extraordinary and abundant than the petitioner anticipated (2.7-8; 4.50; 11.39-44)

        2.       Johannine presentation of the miracle: overabundance and symbolism

        a.       at Cana there are six stone jars, each holding about 16 to 24 gallons of water—thus, Jesus provides about 144 gallons of wine at the end of the wedding!

        b.       a plentiful grape harvest in fall (the end of the year) leads to a joyful abundance of wine, so the prophets used the symbolism of an abundance of wine at the end of days, when YHWH would transform the world (Amos 9.13-14; Isa 25.6-7; Jer 31.12-14)

         

        Andrew T. Dolan, Ph.D. Cand.

        Assistant Professor of Theology

        Francis Hall 232

        Alvernia College

        400 St. Bernardine Street

        Reading, PA  19607-1799

        (610) 796-8435
        dolan@...

        http://www.lasalle.edu/~dolan/alvernia.htm

      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Tom Barnes To: crosstalk2@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 11:07 PM Subject: [XTalk] Jesus and wine I don t know if this question is off
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 3, 2000
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Tom Barnes
          To: crosstalk2@egroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 11:07 PM
          Subject: [XTalk] Jesus and wine


          I don't know if this question is off topic and if it is I sincerely
          apologize. I have recently become interested in the search for the
          historical Jesus. A professor started me and now the door will not shut; I
          want to or at least try to know all that I can. Was the water that Jesus
          turned to wine a wine that was used for intoxicating purposes?

          The wine was real wine. Actually, Jesus' frequent attendance at a good party
          gave him the reputation of a wine-bibber. Any wine at this party, no matter
          its source or believed source was about 14% ethanol. Besides, the Coca
          Cola plant was on strike in the 1st century.


          Jack
          --
          ______________________________________________

          taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

          Jack Kilmon
          jkilmon@...

          http://www.historian.net

          sharing a meal for free.
          http://www.thehungersite.com/
        • RSBrenchley@aol.com
          Tom Barnes writes:
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 4, 2000
            Tom Barnes writes:

            << The wine was real wine. Actually, Jesus' frequent attendance at a good
            party
            gave him the reputation of a wine-bibber. Any wine at this party, no matter
            its source or believed source was about 14% ethanol. Besides, the Coca
            Cola plant was on strike in the 1st century. >>

            Leaving aside questions of historicity, it surely has to be real wine
            that is referred to. Yeast is found naturally on grape skins, so grape juice
            will inevitably contain yeast, and will ferment unless artificially prevented
            from doing so. As far as I know they had no way of doing this in the 1st
            Century AD. Unfermented juice would perhaps not have been recognised as wine,
            and one would surely not expect the chief steward to sing its praises!

            Regards,

            Robert Brenchley

            RSBrenchley@...
          • Tom Barnes
            Professor Dolan do you have any idea how I can have my e-mails forwarded to a new address? I will be bounced out of Temple s system in a few days and I have a
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 5, 2000
              Professor Dolan do you have any idea how I can have my e-mails forwarded to a new address?  I will be bounced out of Temple's system in a few days and I have a new e-mail address.  It is, apa279@... any help would be great thanks, Tom
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 7:56 AM
              Subject: [XTalk] Jesus and wine

              I find John Meier’s analysis of the Cana account persuasive.  Meier argues that the entire pericope shows the hand of the Johannine redactor.  Some of his points relevant to the matter of the water turned wine are as follows:

               

              1.       Jesus’ implied refusal (2.4) to Mary’s implied request, her continued expectation of his positive response (2.5), and his final, overabundant response (2.7-8) fit John’s emphasis that Jesus is always in control

              a.       Jesus acts when no request is made (5.1-9; 6.1-15; 6.16-21; 9.1-7)

              b.       when Jesus is explicitly or implicitly asked for a miracle, a pattern emerges:

                                                                 i.      a petitioner makes an implied or explicit request for a miracle (2.3; 4.47; 11.3)

                                                               ii.      Jesus at first seems to refuse (2.4; 4.48; 11.4)

                                                              iii.      the petitioner doesn’t lose faith that Jesus will act (2.5; 4.49; 11.21-27)

                                                              iv.      Jesus does respond to the persistent faith—in a way more extraordinary and abundant than the petitioner anticipated (2.7-8; 4.50; 11.39-44)

              2.       Johannine presentation of the miracle: overabundance and symbolism

              a.       at Cana there are six stone jars, each holding about 16 to 24 gallons of water—thus, Jesus provides about 144 gallons of wine at the end of the wedding!

              b.       a plentiful grape harvest in fall (the end of the year) leads to a joyful abundance of wine, so the prophets used the symbolism of an abundance of wine at the end of days, when YHWH would transform the world (Amos 9.13-14; Isa 25.6-7; Jer 31.12-14)

               

              Andrew T. Dolan, Ph.D. Cand.

              Assistant Professor of Theology

              Francis Hall 232

              Alvernia College

              400 St. Bernardine Street

              Reading, PA  19607-1799

              (610) 796-8435
              dolan@...

              http://www.lasalle.edu/~dolan/alvernia.htm

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