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Re: [XTalk] James, brother of Jesus

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  • Mahlon H. Smith
    ... ... I stand charged with character defamation. If anyone can show me where I have accused the author of these statements with the alleged charges, I
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 1, 2000
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      Stephen Goranson wrote:
      >
      > It is something less than edifying to read from Mahlon Smith that anyone
      > who disagrees with him must be deluded, a non-historian, an apologist.
      >
      <SNIP>
      >
      > So if I am accused of being an apologist deluded non-historian, can I be
      > read the full charge, M. Smith--apologist for what?
      >

      I stand charged with character defamation. If anyone can show me where I
      have accused the author of these statements with the alleged charges, I
      will be only too happy to retract such accusations. But unless I am
      deluded it is he who has regularly challenged my expositions of the
      textual evidence ever since my initial mention of Josephus in commenting
      on Odell McGuire's summary of the TV special "Real Jesus" (7/23).

      He has found occasion to fault my careful analysis of Josephus'
      statements & protested dismay when I pointed out that Josephus did not
      exactly say what he claimed. When he objected to my use of contemporary
      political analogies I apologized for an unintended offence. When he
      protested my general reference to *a priori* impressions as criticism of
      his own presuppositions I again apologized & explained that the
      statement that was not directed at him personally (7/28). When I failed
      to respond immediately to his initial invitation to consider his
      speculative reconstruction of the motives of those who appealed to
      Agrippa, he protested that I had "dismissed" it. When I took time to
      review it & explain my reasons for not regarding it as the the "most
      plausible" historical explanation of the the situation that Josephus
      described, he chose to ignore my reply.

      In none of those posts did I claim that he was himself an apologist, a
      non-historian, or deluded. If anyone would care to review the history of
      this thread I am confident that they will not find the slurs he charges
      me with in any of my posts addressed to him. On the contrary, I
      explicitly stated that I respected his scholarship despite our
      disagreement on this issue (7/24). Instead he seems to have interpreted
      general statements of principle of critical historiography in my posts
      addressed to others on this list [R.S.Benchley (7/29) & Jack Kilmon
      (7/31)] as personal attacks upon himself. I invite the moderators &
      other list members to decide for themselves who has initiated unedifying
      *ad hominem* accusations in this thread.

      In the meantime I have been effectively silenced. In more than 40 years
      of academic debate I have never consciously or intentionally slighted
      the integrity or competence of any adversary. I have publicly argued the
      interpretation of historical data with many of the brightest & best
      biblical scholars (including Crossan, Borg, Chilton, Luedemann, Fortna,
      Culpepper, Weeden & my own teachers Funk & Kee -- not to mention most of
      the long-time participants in this list). And those debates have only
      served to increase a sense of mutual respect for the integrity,
      intelligence & scholarship of minds that draw divergent conclusions from
      the same evidence. So I am totally at a loss of how to respond to those
      who takes personal offense at analyses that differ from their own. I
      cannot participate in an atmosphere where I have to worry that anything
      I might say will be misinterpreted as an attack upon someone else.
      Therefore, henceforth I choose silence.

      Shalom!

      Mahlon

      *********************

      Mahlon H. Smith, http://religion.rutgers.edu/mh_smith.html
      Associate Professor
      Department of Religion Virtual Religion Index
      Rutgers University http://religion.rutgers.edu/vri/
      New Brunswick NJ

      Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
      http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/

      A Synoptic Gospels Primer
      http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/primer/

      Jesus Seminar Forum
      http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/
    • Groupcolby@aol.com
      OK, break it up -- action like this are what caused the last problems at crosstalk. Anyway, my question: What about James brother, Jude did this person ever
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 1, 2000
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        OK, break it up -- action like this are what caused the last problems at
        crosstalk.

        Anyway, my question: What about James brother, Jude did this person ever have
        anything to say, about his half-brother, Jesus? If so what was it? who
        recorded it and where can it be read it?

        Sincerely,
        Jim Colby
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] James, brother of Jesus ... have ...
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 1, 2000
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <Groupcolby@...>
          To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 4:45 AM
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] James, brother of Jesus


          > OK, break it up -- action like this are what caused the last problems at
          > crosstalk.
          >
          > Anyway, my question: What about James brother, Jude did this person ever
          have
          > anything to say, about his half-brother, Jesus? If so what was it? who
          > recorded it and where can it be read it?

          Jesus\Y'shua is recorded as having 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters. Among
          his brothers, we know more about James/Ya'akov than any of the others. The
          other brothers were:

          Yosef/Joses
          Shymeon/Simon
          Yehudah/Jude

          Shymeon appears to have succeeded Ya'akov as head of the Jerusalem
          N'tzarim after Ya'akov's death. We know nothing about them nor have
          anything that they may have written or said. Whhether the Epistle of
          James contain origional Jacobian material is a matter of conjecture...the
          same for the Epistle of Jude.

          The family of Jesus...as well as most of his Talmuddaya..seem to have
          been personae non gratae to the early gentile Christian church and the
          Desposynoi continued to be outside the mainstream for a couple of
          centuries. It is interesting to speculate why...perhaps because the
          family and eyewitnesses would have been hostile to the virgin-born
          god/man stuff...what ya think?

          Jack


          Jack
          --
          ______________________________________________

          taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

          Jack Kilmon
          jkilmon@...

          http://www.historian.net

          sharing a meal for free.
          http://www.thehungersite.com/
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