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[crosstalk2] Re: Mythmaker - was What about XTalk

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... I am assuming that Pharisaism came in different flavors of messianic expectation. Yehuine thought seems to be grounded in a subset of Judaism in the
    Message 1 of 5 , May 25, 1999
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      Sam Gibson wrote:

      > Hi Jack,
      >
      > Yep. Mythmaker.
      >
      > Well... I need to digest it some more, but I found many of his arguments
      > interesting and a little compelling. Was Jesus a Pharisee? Was Paul? I
      > definitely do not think that Paul was, but am not really convinced on
      > whether Jesus was or not.

      I am assuming that Pharisaism came in different "flavors" of messianic
      expectation. Yehuine thought seems to be grounded in a subset of
      Judaism in the Enochian literature, hence I would call him an "Enochian."
      The Essenes probably also fit into this category, differing perhaps from
      the Jesus people on matters of eschatology, perhaps apocalyptic vs ethical?

      > I was particularly intrigued by Maccoby's position on Peter and the Pillars
      > of Jerusalem and the serious conflict between them and Paul. He does not say
      > it outright, but I think he makes a good argument that Acts should be viewed
      > more as an apologetic work trying to reconcile problems in the historical
      > events as opposed to a historical work trying to report historiocal facts.

      I agree. I am certain that things were not as "chummy" between the
      Jacobians and the Paulines as Luke would have us believe.

      > Acts is a book that I need to read more often and more on, admittedly. Do
      > you (or does anyone) have any suggestions for books that take it apart and
      > examine it critically? I am off to the bookstore tonight for more food...
      >
      > Overall, I can see why he is treated in the same fashion the Baigent,
      > Lincoln and Leigh are treated, though. He has presented an unpopular idea
      > and those are never received very warmly. At least, not at first.

      He does raise some interesting questions over Paul's claims as a Pharisee
      and a Hebrew of Hebrews. I am still curious as to why a Pharisee, taught
      supposedly by Gamaliel in the Beyt Hillel, would be an "agent" of the
      Sadducee HP...doesn't make sense to me.

      Jack

      --
      ______________________________________________

      taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

      Jack Kilmon
      jkilmon@...

      http://www.historian.net



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    • Sam Gibson
      Hi Jack, Yep. Mythmaker. Well... I need to digest it some more, but I found many of his arguments interesting and a little compelling. Was Jesus a Pharisee?
      Message 2 of 5 , May 25, 1999
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        Hi Jack,

        Yep. Mythmaker.

        Well... I need to digest it some more, but I found many of his arguments
        interesting and a little compelling. Was Jesus a Pharisee? Was Paul? I
        definitely do not think that Paul was, but am not really convinced on
        whether Jesus was or not.

        I was particularly intrigued by Maccoby's position on Peter and the Pillars
        of Jerusalem and the serious conflict between them and Paul. He does not say
        it outright, but I think he makes a good argument that Acts should be viewed
        more as an apologetic work trying to reconcile problems in the historical
        events as opposed to a historical work trying to report historiocal facts.

        Acts is a book that I need to read more often and more on, admittedly. Do
        you (or does anyone) have any suggestions for books that take it apart and
        examine it critically? I am off to the bookstore tonight for more food...

        Overall, I can see why he is treated in the same fashion the Baigent,
        Lincoln and Leigh are treated, though. He has presented an unpopular idea
        and those are never received very warmly. At least, not at first.
        -
        Sincerely,

        Sam Gibson
        --------------------------------
        cygnus@...
        http://www.cygnus-study.com
        --------------------------------

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>

        >
        > Mythmaker? What did ya think?
        >
        > Jack



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      • Liz Fried
        ... Why don t you think Paul was a Pharisee? Liz Lisbeth S. Fried Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies New York University 51 Washington Sq. S. New York, NY
        Message 3 of 5 , May 25, 1999
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          From: Sam Gibson:

          >Was Jesus a Pharisee? Was Paul? I
          > definitely do not think that Paul was, but am not really convinced on
          > whether Jesus was or not.

          Why don't you think Paul was a Pharisee?

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried
          Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
          New York University
          51 Washington Sq. S.
          New York, NY 10012
          lqf9256@...
          lizfried@...


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        • William Arnal
          ... Uh, yeah, I second the question. Paul SAYS he was a Pharisee, and Jesus, at least according to the synoptic tradition, spends a hell of a lot of time
          Message 4 of 5 , May 25, 1999
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            At 01:41 PM 5/25/99 -0400, Liz wrote:

            >From: Sam Gibson:
            >
            >>Was Jesus a Pharisee? Was Paul? I
            >> definitely do not think that Paul was, but am not really convinced on
            >> whether Jesus was or not.
            >
            >Why don't you think Paul was a Pharisee?

            Uh, yeah, I second the question. Paul SAYS he was a Pharisee, and Jesus, at
            least according to the synoptic tradition, spends a hell of a lot of time
            qualifying and undermining nomistic piety.

            Bill
            __________________________________
            William Arnal wea1@...
            Religion/Classics check out my web page, at:
            New York University http://pages.nyu.edu/~wea1/


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          • Campbell, Barry G (Barry)
            I believe Paul could very well have been Pharisee. I don t believe Jesus was (because I don t personally believe the man existed)... I also think that Acts
            Message 5 of 5 , May 25, 1999
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              I believe Paul could very well have been Pharisee. I don't believe Jesus
              was (because I don't personally believe the man existed)...

              I also think that Acts (in my opinion, likely a early-middle 2nd century
              document) was apologetic...a way to shore up authority of the Jerusalem
              Group. As for the conflicts between Paul and Peter...aside from Acts...Paul
              indicates that the relationship with the Jerusalem Group was strained, but
              not that bad.

              Barry Campbell


              > ----------
              > From: Jack Kilmon[SMTP:jkilmon@...]
              > Reply To: crosstalk2@egroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 11:03 AM
              > To: crosstalk2@egroups.com
              > Subject: [crosstalk2] Re: Mythmaker - was What about XTalk
              >
              >
              >
              > Sam Gibson wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Jack,
              > >
              > > Yep. Mythmaker.
              > >
              > > Well... I need to digest it some more, but I found many of his arguments
              > > interesting and a little compelling. Was Jesus a Pharisee? Was Paul? I
              > > definitely do not think that Paul was, but am not really convinced on
              > > whether Jesus was or not.
              >
              > I am assuming that Pharisaism came in different "flavors" of messianic
              > expectation. Yehuine thought seems to be grounded in a subset of
              > Judaism in the Enochian literature, hence I would call him an "Enochian."
              > The Essenes probably also fit into this category, differing perhaps from
              > the Jesus people on matters of eschatology, perhaps apocalyptic vs
              > ethical?
              >
              > > I was particularly intrigued by Maccoby's position on Peter and the
              > Pillars
              > > of Jerusalem and the serious conflict between them and Paul. He does not
              > say
              > > it outright, but I think he makes a good argument that Acts should be
              > viewed
              > > more as an apologetic work trying to reconcile problems in the
              > historical
              > > events as opposed to a historical work trying to report historiocal
              > facts.
              >
              > I agree. I am certain that things were not as "chummy" between the
              > Jacobians and the Paulines as Luke would have us believe.
              >
              > > Acts is a book that I need to read more often and more on, admittedly.
              > Do
              > > you (or does anyone) have any suggestions for books that take it apart
              > and
              > > examine it critically? I am off to the bookstore tonight for more
              > food...
              > >
              > > Overall, I can see why he is treated in the same fashion the Baigent,
              > > Lincoln and Leigh are treated, though. He has presented an unpopular
              > idea
              > > and those are never received very warmly. At least, not at first.
              >
              > He does raise some interesting questions over Paul's claims as a Pharisee
              > and a Hebrew of Hebrews. I am still curious as to why a Pharisee, taught
              > supposedly by Gamaliel in the Beyt Hillel, would be an "agent" of the
              > Sadducee HP...doesn't make sense to me.
              >
              > Jack
              >
              > --
              > ______________________________________________
              >
              > taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon
              >
              > Jack Kilmon
              > jkilmon@...
              >
              > http://www.historian.net
              >
              >
              >
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              >
              >

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