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Re: [XTalk] Semitic background of the Synoptics

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  • Hmanhoff@aol.com
    Jack Kilmon writes: There are no Aramaic texts that predate the Greek. When mentioning important scholarship about the Semitic background to the gospels, one
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 9, 2000
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      Jack Kilmon writes: There are no Aramaic texts that predate the Greek.

      When mentioning important scholarship about the Semitic background to the
      gospels, one must not forget the brilliant work of David Daube (z"l), *The
      New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism*. Let us remember that while there "are
      no Aramaic texts that predate the Greek," there is no copy of the so-called Q
      text either. In my almost completed dissertation, I argue that the gospels
      of Mark and Luke were presented to the Aramaic speaking masses, and that the
      gospel of Matthew was written in the Hebrew style of the sages (tanaim). If
      these works were not composed for Jews and Judaic-sympathizers, then why
      would it rely on the Hebrew Scriptures for prooftexts.
    • Richard Anderson
      Harry: I look forward to reading your dissertation because so much of the current scholarship emphasises the graeco-roman influences to such a degree that
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 9, 2000
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        Harry: I look forward to reading your dissertation because so much of the
        current scholarship emphasises the graeco-roman influences to such a degree
        that modern scholarship even denies the judaic background of the NT doctrine
        of atonement.

        For instance, Frederick W. Danker's Commentary on Luke (Jesus and the New
        Age) is based upon his earlier epigraphic study of greaco-roman inscriptions
        to establish Jesus as the benefactor.

        Richard H. Anderson
        http://www.geocities.com/gospelofluke


        > In my almost completed dissertation, I argue that the >gospels
        > of Mark and Luke were presented to the Aramaic >speaking masses, and that
        the
        > gospel of Matthew was written in the Hebrew style of >the sages (tanaim).
        If
        > these works were not composed for Jews and Judaic->sympathizers, then why
        > would it rely on the Hebrew Scriptures for prooftexts.
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... There is a fallacious and question begging hidden assumption here that the Jews and Judaic Sympathizes to whom the Gospels were written were not Greek
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 9, 2000
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          Hmanhoff@... wrote:

          > In my almost completed dissertation, I argue that the gospels
          > of Mark and Luke were presented to the Aramaic speaking masses, and that the
          > gospel of Matthew was written in the Hebrew style of the sages (tanaim). If
          > these works were not composed for Jews and Judaic-sympathizers, then why
          > would it rely on the Hebrew Scriptures for prooftexts.
          >

          There is a fallacious and question begging hidden assumption here that the Jews
          and "Judaic Sympathizes" to whom the Gospels were written were not Greek speaking
          and/or read the "hebrew" scriptures in Hebrew rather than Greek. But as the
          primarily LXX form of the biblical quotations in the Gospels (and in Paul's
          letters) show, not to mention a vast array of other evidence, this does not seem
          to have been the case.

          What is the title of your thesis? Under whose supervision and at which
          institution of learning are you writing it?

          Yours,

          Jeffrey Gibson
          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
          7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
          Chicago, Illinois 60626
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... They did not rely on the Hebrew Tanakh but on the LXX. I am not thoroughly convinced the Matthean scribe was competent in either Hebrew or Aramaic and
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 9, 2000
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            Hmanhoff@... wrote:
            >
            > Jack Kilmon writes: There are no Aramaic texts that predate the Greek.
            >
            > When mentioning important scholarship about the Semitic background to the
            > gospels, one must not forget the brilliant work of David Daube (z"l), *The
            > New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism*. Let us remember that while there "are
            > no Aramaic texts that predate the Greek," there is no copy of the so-called Q
            > text either. In my almost completed dissertation, I argue that the gospels
            > of Mark and Luke were presented to the Aramaic speaking masses, and that the
            > gospel of Matthew was written in the Hebrew style of the sages (tanaim). If
            > these works were not composed for Jews and Judaic-sympathizers, then why
            > would it rely on the Hebrew Scriptures for prooftexts.

            They did not rely on the Hebrew Tanakh but on the LXX. I am not
            thoroughly
            convinced the Matthean scribe was competent in either Hebrew or Aramaic
            and
            writing for Hellenistic Jews in, probably, Antioch didn't need to be.

            Jack


            --
            ______________________________________________

            taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

            Jack Kilmon
            jkilmon@...

            http://www.historian.net

            sharing a meal for free.
            http://www.thehungersite.com/
          • Hmanhoff@aol.com
            Friends, Thank you for your thoughtful comments regarding the Semitic background to the Synoptics. I was asked to introduce myself. So, for the record, I am
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 11, 2000
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              Friends,

              Thank you for your thoughtful comments regarding the Semitic background to
              the Synoptics. I was asked to introduce myself. So, for the record, I am
              ABD at University of California, Santa Barbara, and I am writing this
              dissertation with Birger Pearson. It is tentatively subtitled: Semitic
              Idioms in the Synoptic Gospels and Related Jewish Literature. My MA is in
              Hebrew Literature from the Hebrew Union College.

              I am a full time rabbi and am writing this dissertation in my very limited
              free time. So I have limited my research to the "kingdom" texts. I rely
              heavily on Chilton, Daube, Flusser, Fitzmyer and Vermes, biblical
              commentaries and mostly concordances and gospel parallels. I was more than
              slightly inspired by Philip Sigal's *The Halakha of Jesus of Nazareth
              According to the Gospel of Matthew*. Unfortunately this work has been
              largely ignored since its single review by Saldarini. My Greek skills are
              limited to a reading knowledge of koine, but my Hebrew and Aramaic are more
              than passable. I hope to be able to tell you more about my dissertation if
              it ever nears or is actually completed. Once again thanks for you comments.

              Harry A. Manhoff, ABD
              UCSB
            • Richard Anderson
              Rabbi Harry: Welcome to crosstalk. I look forward to your contributions and particularly to your perspective. I recommend Mark Goodacre, NT Gateway,
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 12, 2000
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                Rabbi Harry:

                Welcome to crosstalk. I look forward to your contributions and
                particularly to your perspective.
                I recommend Mark Goodacre, NT Gateway,
                http://www.ntgateway.com/ as an excellent resource.

                I also suggest Jerusalem Perspective, http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/
                I think
                the Kingdom of Heaven by Joseph Frankovic, might also be helpful for your
                kingdom of God vs. kingdom of heaven study.

                Richard H. Anderson
                http://www.geocities.com/gospelofluke

                > Friends,
                >
                > Thank you for your thoughtful comments regarding the Semitic background to
                > the Synoptics. I was asked to introduce myself. So, for the record, I am
                > ABD at University of California, Santa Barbara, and I am writing this
                > dissertation with Birger Pearson. It is tentatively subtitled: Semitic
                > Idioms in the Synoptic Gospels and Related Jewish Literature. My MA is in
                > Hebrew Literature from the Hebrew Union College.
                >
                > I am a full time rabbi and am writing this dissertation in my very limited
                > free time. So I have limited my research to the "kingdom" texts. I rely
                > heavily on Chilton, Daube, Flusser, Fitzmyer and Vermes, biblical
                > commentaries and mostly concordances and gospel parallels. I was more
                than
                > slightly inspired by Philip Sigal's *The Halakha of Jesus of Nazareth
                > According to the Gospel of Matthew*. Unfortunately this work has been
                > largely ignored since its single review by Saldarini. My Greek skills are
                > limited to a reading knowledge of koine, but my Hebrew and Aramaic are
                more
                > than passable. I hope to be able to tell you more about my dissertation
                if
                > it ever nears or is actually completed. Once again thanks for you
                comments.
                >
                > Harry A. Manhoff, ABD
                > UCSB
              • Mark Goodacre
                I ve added links (on http://www.ntgateway.com/Jesus.htm) to a couple more articles that will be of interest to the list, so note them here also:
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 12, 2000
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                  I've added links (on http://www.ntgateway.com/Jesus.htm) to a couple more
                  articles that will be of interest to the list, so note them here also:

                  http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4thR_index/Sayings/sayings.html
                  {HYPERLINK "http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4thR_index/Sayings/sayings.html"}Lane C. McGaughy, "The Search for the Historical Jesus: Why start with the
                  sayings?", Fourth R 9,5–6 (September/December 1996)

                  http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/crossan.htm
                  {HYPERLINK "http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/crossan.htm"}William Loader, "Simple Choices? A Response to John Dominic Crossan",
                  Colloquium. The Australia and New Zealand Theological Review 31.2
                  (1999) pp. 67-74

                  Mark


                  --------------------------------------
                  Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                  Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                  University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                  Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

                  http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                  Homepage
                  http://www.ntgateway.com
                  The New Testament Gateway
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