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[XTalk] Re: J's disciples Simon and John

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  • lbr@pop.sprynet.com
    John (Yokhanan) of Gischala (Gush-Khalav) and Shimon bar-Giora (son of a proselyte?) were leaders oif two of the principal factions defending Jerusalem. If I
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 6, 2000
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      John (Yokhanan) of Gischala (Gush-Khalav) and Shimon bar-Giora (son of a proselyte?) were leaders oif two of the principal factions defending Jerusalem. If I recall correctly, the punishment for a leader of a revolt was public strangulation at the triumph, rather than crucifiction. Shimon and Yokhanan were apparently, common names among first century Jews, as was Yeshua.

      Lewis Reich

      Original Message:
      -----------------
      From: Geoff Hudson g.hudson@...
      Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:09:44 -0000
      Subject: [XTalk] Re: J's disciples Simon and John


      Re: J's disciples Simon and John

      In Josephus' 'Wars of the Jews', I was astonished to find that the names of the two principal Jewish heroes during the first war of the Jews against Rome were Simon and John, the same names as the two principal apostles of Jesus.

      Towards the end of the war, Simon (possibly the same Simon who earlier had his own assembly/congregation/church) was trapped underground and forced to surrender. After the war he was taken to Rome (with John and 700 captives), dressed-up to hide his emaciation, given the front position among the captives in the triumphal procession, drawn along by a rope around his head, and finally executed (probably crucified - may be upside down according to the tradition associated with Peter) (see War, Book 7). Compare that with John 21:18 and 19 : Jesus said (to the disciple Simon/Peter), 'I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.'

      The other leader John had surrendered more readily and was given life imprisonment (See War, Book 6). Compare that with John 21.22: Jesus answered (speaking to Simon/Peter), 'If I want him (referring to the disciple John) to remain alive until I return what is that to you?'

      An imaginative playwright seems to be at work. The gospel account is pure theatre. Why were the names of the two heroes chosen for two of the principal actors? How can a historical Jesus have fictitious disciples?

      Geoff Hudson

      Warwickshire

      England

      g.hudson@...



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    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Geoff, It would appear from your speculations on the origins of the names of two of the disciples in the Gospels that you ve never read any of the books
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 8, 2000
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        Geoff Hudson wrote:
        Re: J's disciples Simon and John

        In Josephus’ ‘Wars of the Jews’, I was astonished to find that the names of the two principal Jewish heroes during the first war of the Jews against Rome were Simon and John, the same names as the two principal apostles of Jesus.

        [snip]

        An imaginative playwright seems to be at work. The gospel account is pure theatre. Why were the names of the two heroes chosen for two of the principal actors? How can a historical Jesus have fictitious disciples?


        Geoff,

        It would appear from your speculations on the origins of the names of two of the disciples in the Gospels that  you've never read any of the books of Maccabees or William Farmer's _Maccabees, Zealots, and Josephus_, particularly the chapter "Were the Maccabees Remembered?". Otherwise you'd know how much your claim that the chief disciples of Jesus being named after some of the leaders of the Jewish revolt (not to mention your thesis about the non historicity of the Gospel traditions on this matter) puts the cart before the historical horse.

        Since two of the Maccabean brothers, who lived long before either Jesus' disciples or the leaders of the war were born, bore the names John and Simeon (not to mention that another bore the name Judas and that the father of all of them was named Mattathias = Matthew), the actual historical likelihood is that the disciples  James and John (as well as the two Judases and Matthew of which the evangelists speak) AND the leaders of the war (including Eleazar ben Yair cf. 2 Macc 5,  not to mention Judas the Gamalean  -- fl. 6 CE of whom Josephus speaks) and other assorted first century Johns, Judases, Simon/Simeons,  were consciously named after and **in reverent memory of**  these second cent BCE figures.

        Yours,

        Jeffrey Gibson
        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson
        7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
        Chicago, Illinois 60626
        e-mail jgibson000@...
         

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