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[XTalk] Re: time

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  • David C. Hindley
    ... called ... Around ... measure. As ... day ... could ... more ... Dave J, I do not know whether this is supposed to be a realistic march or not. Personally,
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 5, 2000
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      weasel <davjone-@...> wrote:

      > At 19:14 02/05/2000 -0500, Dave H. wrote:
      >
      > Snip...
      > >
      > >1) In Mesopotamia, distance was measured by Sumerian distance units
      called
      > >"danna" (= about 7 English miles, known to be used about 2400 BCE).
      Around
      > >1000 BCE this distance measure was also being used as a time
      measure. As
      > >the average distance which could be traversed in a day (by an army, I
      > >presume) was about 12 "danna" distance units (about 84 miles), the
      day
      > >became divided into 12 "danna" time units.
      >
      > Something here seems amiss. There is no way an ancient army on march
      could
      > average 84 miles a day. Fifteen to twenty miles a day would be much
      more
      > reasonable.

      Dave J,

      I do not know whether this is supposed to be a realistic march or not.
      Personally, I'd doubt it.

      The data Neugebauer presented was that the danna equalled approxomately
      7 miles, that it was used as a time measurement, and that 12 danna were
      used to represent a solar cycle.

      I suppose that it represents a hypothetical march, lasting all day,
      averaging 3.5 miles per hour.

      Your example of 20 miles a day, if on the march 5-6 hours a day (the
      practice of Roman legions, I believe), would approach 3.5 MPH.

      Regards,

      Dave Hindley
    • Robert M Schacht
      On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:14:58 -0500 David C. Hindley ... David, I am a bit puzzled by the orthography of WRA , which does not seem to follow modern
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 6, 2000
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        On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:14:58 -0500 "David C. Hindley"
        <dhindley@...> writes:
        > Bob (and others):
        >
        > You ask: >>Is this usage (WRA = 2 hours) attested in the NT or other
        > Palestinian literature of that time?<<
        >
        > My sources are _Astronomy and History: Selected Essays_, In which
        > Otto
        > Neugebauer collected 43 of his journal publications through 1979 in
        > memory
        > of A J Sachs (New York: Springer-Verlag, 1983), and _A Dictionary of
        > Classical Antiquities_ (New York: MacMillan Co, 1901), ...

        David,
        I am a bit puzzled by the orthography of "WRA", which does not seem to
        follow modern conventions. You called it Babylonian, I think. I thought I
        could be of some help here, so I went out to the garage to dig out my
        Chicago Assyrian Dictionary (for which I have little use in my current
        profession), but there is no volume for W's. I checked some of my other
        sources, which also lacked W's in word initial position for
        Assyro-Babylonian words. I am a bit out of practice, however, so I may
        not have looked in the right places.

        But in any case, this is too far afield. Most of your catalog from
        Neugebauer, et al. is too early or too far away to be of much use. The
        most relevant data seems to be the Roman innovation of 4 three hour
        watches through the night, instead of the previous practice of 3 four
        hour watches. I am still wondering about Josephus' terminology of time
        subdivisions of a day.

        Bob
      • Rikki E. Watts
        ... Unless of course Mark is contextualizing ... Rikk Watts Dr. R. E. Watts (PhD, Cantab) Phone (604) 224 3245 Regent College,
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 7, 2000
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          > From: "Mark T. Cameron" <cameronm@...>
          > Reply-To: crosstalk2@egroups.com
          > Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:44:38 -0500
          > To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
          > Subject: [XTalk] Re: time
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: David C. Hindley <dhindley@...>
          >
          >> As for "watches", I noted in a post to Mark Goodacre (with an invalid
          >> subject heading, unfortunately) that Mt & Mk both assume a Roman style
          >> system in which daytime and nightime each consisted of four watches of
          >> 3 hours each. Yes, this is not the system found in the Jewish
          >> scriptures (where there are 3 watches per half day). The rabbis were
          >> debating whether there should be properly 3 or 4 watches per half-day
          >> in Talmudic times, but I wonder what this really tells us about 1st
          >> century CE Palestinian practice. Even if it did suggest the
          >> continuation of the older Jewish practice in Roman times, would the
          >> authors of the Gospels follow Palestinian conventions anyways?
          >
          > This would fit with the traditional theory that GMark was written at Rome
          > by an author who was not native to Palestine. Martin Hengel comments
          > that the labelling of the woman in Mark 7:26 as "Syrophoenician" reflects
          > a Western, Latin usage. It is also claimed that the "kodrantes" coin
          > mentioned in Mark 12:42 was not found in the Eastern empire. This
          > could be another example of a Markan Latinism.
          >
          Unless of course Mark is contextualizing ...

          Rikk Watts


          Dr. R. E. Watts (PhD, Cantab) Phone (604) 224 3245
          Regent College, Fax (604) 224 3097
          5800 University Boulevard
          Vancouver, BC
          CANADA V6T 2E4
        • David C. Hindley
          ... to follow modern conventions. You called it Babylonian, I think. I thought I could be of some help here, so I went out to the garage to dig out my Chicago
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 7, 2000
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            robert m schacht <bobschach-@...> wrote:

            >> I am a bit puzzled by the orthography of "WRA", which does not seem
            to follow modern conventions. You called it Babylonian, I think. I
            thought I could be of some help here, so I went out to the garage to
            dig out my Chicago Assyrian Dictionary (for which I have little use in
            my current profession), but there is no volume for W's. I checked some
            of my other sources, which also lacked W's in word initial position for
            Assyro-Babylonian words. I am a bit out of practice, however, so I may
            not have looked in the right places.<<

            Sorry if I was not being clear <I'll blame this on my non-academic
            brain "filled with mush," which some may recall was the crusty old
            professor's opinion of his law students in the old "Paper Chase" series
            on US Public Television in the 70's>.

            I did not mean to imply that Greek WRA was derived from a Babylonian
            term. My only intent was to demonstrate that the Babylonians had the
            practice of dividing the whole solar day into 12 parts. This was mainly
            for astronomical purposes, so common practice may have been different.
            If we can place any credence on Herodatus (History II.109, which is now
            apparently considered an interpolation, per Neugebauer), then the
            Greeks picked up the concept of dividing the "day" into 12 parts from
            the Babylonians (about 4th century BCE). But Greek practice was closere
            to the Egyptian practice in that the daytime and nightime were both
            subdivided into 12 "hours".

            In a way, it is possible to look at the Greek term WRA in a general
            sense (24 "hours" in a solar day) and a technical, astronomical, sense
            (12 "hours" in a solar rotation). The technical sense was well known to
            intellectual Greeks and Romans who had the leisure to study
            astronomy/astrology.

            >> But in any case, this is too far afield. Most of your catalog from
            Neugebauer, et al. is too early or too far away to be of much use. The
            most relevant data seems to be the Roman innovation of 4 three hour
            watches through the night, instead of the previous practice of 3 four
            hour watches. I am still wondering about Josephus' terminology of time
            subdivisions of a day.<<

            All it does is illustrate how well entrenched the concept of two sets
            of 12 "hour" periods per solar day was in Greek and Egyptian minds. The
            gospels all make use of numbered hours, and I accept that these are
            "hours" approxomating out standard "hour" (12 in day, 12 in night).

            As for "watches", I noted in a post to Mark Goodacre (with an invalid
            subject heading, unfortunately) that Mt & Mk both assume a Roman style
            system in which daytime and nightime each consisted of four watches of
            3 hours each. Yes, this is not the system found in the Jewish
            scriptures (where there are 3 watches per half day). The rabbis were
            debating whether there should be properly 3 or 4 watches per half-day
            in Talmudic times, but I wonder what this really tells us about 1st
            century CE Palestinian practice. Even if it did suggest the
            continuation of the older Jewish practice in Roman times, would the
            authors of the Gospels follow Palestinian conventions anyways?

            Possibly not. I think I see where your going with this. To evaluate how
            well the Gospel accounts of the Passion fit with Jewish practice, we
            should have a good idea of what those practices were, or could have
            been (by inference). We already have a good idea what Greek/Roman
            practice was at this time.

            Unfortunately, there are about a half dozen Greek terms that might be
            used to designate a "watch", which would have to be searched in a
            concordance to the Greek editions of Josephus. That I do not posess
            (yet), but it may be possible to do a search like this with one of the
            online Greek Josephus sites.

            Regards,

            Dave Hindley

            PS: Apologies to group for not changing the subject heading of my
            response to Mark Goodacre the other day! <One of the drawbacks to
            replying from digests>
          • Mark T. Cameron
            ... From: David C. Hindley ... This would fit with the traditional theory that GMark was written at Rome by an author who was not
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 7, 2000
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              -----Original Message-----
              From: David C. Hindley <dhindley@...>

              >As for "watches", I noted in a post to Mark Goodacre (with an invalid
              >subject heading, unfortunately) that Mt & Mk both assume a Roman style
              >system in which daytime and nightime each consisted of four watches of
              >3 hours each. Yes, this is not the system found in the Jewish
              >scriptures (where there are 3 watches per half day). The rabbis were
              >debating whether there should be properly 3 or 4 watches per half-day
              >in Talmudic times, but I wonder what this really tells us about 1st
              >century CE Palestinian practice. Even if it did suggest the
              >continuation of the older Jewish practice in Roman times, would the
              >authors of the Gospels follow Palestinian conventions anyways?

              This would fit with the traditional theory that GMark was written at Rome
              by an author who was not native to Palestine. Martin Hengel comments
              that the labelling of the woman in Mark 7:26 as "Syrophoenician" reflects
              a Western, Latin usage. It is also claimed that the "kodrantes" coin
              mentioned in Mark 12:42 was not found in the Eastern empire. This
              could be another example of a Markan Latinism.

              Mark Cameron
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