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[XTalk] Jewish Jesus vs. Cynic Jesus

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  • Mark T. Cameron
    I recently came across an HJesus article which I thought to be extremely well written, by Bruce Griffin, a D. Phil. student at Oxford at
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 14, 2000
      I recently came across an HJesus article which I thought to be extremely
      well written, by Bruce Griffin, a D. Phil. student at Oxford at
      http://fido.bfriars.ox.ac.uk/allen/html/acts.htm (Incidentally, this
      article is probably worthy of linking to Mark Goodacre's excellent page.)

      The article, titled "Was Jesus a Philosophical Cynic" provides a well
      balanced discussion of the HJesus models based on an essentially
      Jewish-eschatological model (e.g. Sanders, Meier, Wright, Vermes) and an
      essentially Hellenistic-cynic sage model (e.g. Mack, Crossan, Kloppenborg)
      and suggests I think a useful test to determine which is the better model.
      Building on Sanders' suggestion that it is probably easier to determine
      major events in Jesus' life than his actual words, Griffin considers the
      major events that are probably least disputed between the two camps - Jesus'
      baptism by John, Jesus' ministry in Galilee (which probably included
      sapiental sayings, healings, and some form of common meals), and Jesus'
      execution in Jerusalem.
      It then asks which model can best explain these events, coming down on the
      side of the Jewish-eschatological model.

      It would be interesting to hear comments on this article, particularly
      whether this test is a good one and whether people agree with Griffin's
      conclusions.

      Mark Cameron
    • Gary Gilbert
      Dear List Members: For an assignment in a course on the historical Jesus, I am interested in suggestions on a pericope or possibly two which exemplify the
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 14, 2000
        Dear List Members:

        For an assignment in a course on the historical Jesus, I am
        interested in suggestions on a pericope or possibly two
        which exemplify the synoptic problem. Ideally, the passages
        will exhibit the various relationships among the Synoptics
        and also provide the basis for a valuable exercise in
        redactional criticism.


        Gary Gilbert
        gary_gilbert@...

        ----------------------
        Gary Gilbert
        Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies
        850 Columbia Avenue
        Claremont McKenna College
        Claremont, CA 91711
        telephone: 909.607.1877
        fax: 909.621.8419
        e-mail: gary_gilbert@...
        http://faculty.mckenna.edu/ggilbert/index.html
      • Williams, Ritva
        Gary, The two pericopes that I frequently assign are the parable of the mustard seed (Mark 4:30-32; Matt 13:31-32; Luke 13:18-19) and the parable of great
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 14, 2000
          RE: [XTalk] Re: Pericope suggestions

          Gary,

          The two pericopes that I frequently assign are the parable of the mustard seed (Mark 4:30-32; Matt 13:31-32; Luke 13:18-19) and the parable of great dinner (Matt 22:1-14; Luke 14:15-24; Thomas 64). Both work very well.

          Ritva  H. Williams
          Assistant Professor, New Testament
          Dept. of Religion, Old Main 123
          Augustana College, Rock Island
          Phone: 309-794-7396


            -----Original Message-----
            From:   Gary Gilbert [SMTP:gary_gilbert@...]
            Sent:   Friday, January 14, 2000 2:36 PM
            To:     crosstalk2@egroups.com
            Subject:        [XTalk] Re: Pericope suggestions

            Dear List Members:

            For an assignment in a course on the historical Jesus, I am
            interested in suggestions on a pericope or possibly two
            which exemplify the synoptic problem. Ideally, the passages
            will exhibit the various relationships among the Synoptics
            and also provide the basis for a valuable exercise in
            redactional criticism.


            Gary Gilbert
            gary_gilbert@...

            ----------------------
            Gary Gilbert
            Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies
            850 Columbia Avenue
            Claremont McKenna College
            Claremont, CA  91711
            telephone:  909.607.1877
            fax:  909.621.8419
            e-mail:  gary_gilbert@...
            http://faculty.mckenna.edu/ggilbert/index.html


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        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Gary, Although this sort of question is certainly appropriate on XTalk, I think you might find it just as if not more profitable to pose it on Synoptic-L
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 14, 2000
            Gary Gilbert wrote:

            > Dear List Members:
            >
            > For an assignment in a course on the historical Jesus, I am
            > interested in suggestions on a pericope or possibly two
            > which exemplify the synoptic problem. Ideally, the passages
            > will exhibit the various relationships among the Synoptics
            > and also provide the basis for a valuable exercise in
            > redactional criticism.
            >
            > Gary Gilbert
            > gary_gilbert@...
            >

            Gary,

            Although this sort of question is certainly appropriate on XTalk, I think you
            might find it just as if not more profitable to pose it on Synoptic-L (whose
            URL is on the XTalk Home page). You'll also find links there to Synopses where
            you'll be able to pick and chose exactly the kind of material you're looking
            for.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson
            7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
            Chicago, Illinois 60626
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • Mark Goodacre
            ... well. I agree that they are v. interesting and help students come to terms with the Synopsis. One should nevertheless use the Mustard Seed with caution
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 15, 2000
              On 14 Jan 00, at 15:41, Williams, Ritva wrote:

              > Gary,
              >
              > The two pericopes that I frequently assign are the parable of the mustard
              > seed (Mark 4:30-32; Matt 13:31-32; Luke 13:18-19) and the parable of great
              > dinner (Matt 22:1-14; Luke 14:15-24; Thomas 64). Both work very
              well.

              I agree that they are v. interesting and help students come to terms
              with the Synopsis. One should nevertheless use the Mustard
              Seed with caution because it is in many ways untypical -- one of
              only a handful of occasions where Mark is not clearly the middle
              term (cf. John Baptist, Beelzebul). See Mahlon Smith's Synoptic
              Gospel Primer (ref. given in Mike MacDonell's message) for a good
              electronic synopsis in English of this passage (and my Mark
              Without Q for its relevance to the Q sceptical argument). The
              Mustard Seed is also good if you want to bring in Thomas.

              But I always begin with the Leper -- good digestible example of
              triple tradition, mainly featuring a standard Mark-Matthew, Mark-
              Luke, Matthew-Mark-Luke agreements, one or two Minor
              Agreements, some nice little redaction-critical bits and bobs
              (KURIE etc.), even an interesting text-critical bit (the anger /
              compassion in Mark). Also it has a nice example of editorial
              fatigue, which provides a nice hint of the direction of copying. I
              proceed with the Stilling of the Storm -- again a good example of
              Triple Tradition, but with some interesting redactional bits and
              bobs, especially in Matthew. For double tradition, one can do
              much worse than begin with the preaching of John the Baptist --
              good example of near 100 per cent verbatim agreement between
              Matthew and Luke.

              Mark
              ---------------------------
              Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
              Dept of Theology
              University of Birmingham Fax.: +44 (0)121 414 6866
              Birmingham B15 2TT Tel.: +44 (0)121 414 7512

              http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
              All-in-One Biblical Resources Search
              New Testament Gateway
              Mark Without Q
              Aseneth Home Page
            • Mike MacDonell
              Dear Gary: ... Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200. Go directly to the following link (it is a treasure trove). It is Mahlon Smith s Synoptic Problem Primer
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 16, 2000
                Dear Gary:

                At 12:36 PM 1/14/00 -0800, you wrote:
                >Dear List Members:
                >
                >For an assignment in a course on the historical Jesus, I am
                >interested in suggestions on a pericope or possibly two
                >which exemplify the synoptic problem. Ideally, the passages
                >will exhibit the various relationships among the Synoptics
                >and also provide the basis for a valuable exercise in
                >redactional criticism.
                >

                Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200. Go directly to the following link (it
                is a treasure trove). It is Mahlon Smith's Synoptic Problem Primer site:

                http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~religion/nt/primer.html

                Best Regards,
                Mike
                _______________________________________________________________
                Michael T. MacDonell, Ph.D. (Microbiology, 1984)
                and Doctoral Student in Biblical Studies
                Trinity Bible College and Seminary
                _______________________________________________________________
                Dieu mésure le froid à la brebis tondue.
                -Henri Estienne (1594): Les Prémices, etc. p. 47.
                _______________________________________________________________
              • Mahlon H. Smith
                Dear Mike: I just came across this old note as I was cleaning out my XTalk folder. Thank you for the plug. Would you mind me quoting you on the new Reviews
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 16, 2000
                  Dear Mike:

                  I just came across this old note as I was cleaning out my XTalk folder.
                  Thank you for the plug. Would you mind me quoting you on the new Reviews
                  page that I'm adding to my *Synoptic Primer*? I've found that the only
                  way to get an academic administration to give due credit to electronic
                  publications is to collect commendations from academics who use them. So
                  I've begun culling notices on sites such as Mark Goodacre's etc. & email
                  commendations like your "treasure trove" evaluation. Though you are
                  still only a doctoral candidate in biblical studies, the fact that you
                  are a PhD in a scientific field should qualify your critical status in
                  the eyes of a State University administration. Any additional words of
                  review that you care to pen would also be greatly appreciated.

                  Thanks.

                  Shalom!

                  Mahlon

                  Mike MacDonell wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Gary:
                  >
                  > At 12:36 PM 1/14/00 -0800, you wrote:
                  > >Dear List Members:
                  > >
                  > >For an assignment in a course on the historical Jesus, I am
                  > >interested in suggestions on a pericope or possibly two
                  > >which exemplify the synoptic problem. Ideally, the passages
                  > >will exhibit the various relationships among the Synoptics
                  > >and also provide the basis for a valuable exercise in
                  > >redactional criticism.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200. Go directly to the following link (it
                  > is a treasure trove). It is Mahlon Smith's Synoptic Problem Primer site:
                  >
                  > http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~religion/nt/primer.html
                  >
                  > Best Regards,
                  > Mike
                  > _______________________________________________________________
                  > Michael T. MacDonell, Ph.D. (Microbiology, 1984)
                  > and Doctoral Student in Biblical Studies
                  > Trinity Bible College and Seminary
                  > _______________________________________________________________
                  > Dieu mésure le froid à la brebis tondue.
                  > -Henri Estienne (1594): Les Prémices, etc. p. 47.
                  > _______________________________________________________________
                  >
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                  --

                  *********************

                  Mahlon H. Smith, http://religion.rutgers.edu/mh_smith.html
                  Associate Professor
                  Department of Religion Virtual Religion Index
                  Rutgers University http://religion.rutgers.edu/vri/
                  New Brunswick NJ

                  Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
                  http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/

                  A Synoptic Gospels Primer
                  http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/primer/

                  Jesus Seminar Forum
                  http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/
                • Mahlon H. Smith
                  ... The updated URL for Synoptic Gospels Primer is the one following my signature below. Shalom! Mahlon -- ********************* Mahlon H. Smith,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 16, 2000
                    Greet Kershaw wrote:

                    >
                    > << > http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~religion/nt/primer.html >>
                    >
                    > Could there be a mistake in the url? I am unable to raise it.
                    > Greet Kershaw
                    >

                    The updated URL for Synoptic Gospels Primer is the one following my
                    signature below.

                    Shalom!

                    Mahlon

                    --

                    *********************

                    Mahlon H. Smith, http://religion.rutgers.edu/mh_smith.html
                    Associate Professor
                    Department of Religion Virtual Religion Index
                    Rutgers University http://religion.rutgers.edu/vri/
                    New Brunswick NJ

                    Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
                    http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/

                    A Synoptic Gospels Primer
                    http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/primer/

                    Jesus Seminar Forum
                    http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/
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