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[Xtalk] Re: synedrion vs sanhedrin

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  • Mahlon H. Smith
    I wrote: There is no reliable evidence that HJ claimed to be the Messiah. This was a role foisted on him by others, probably as a result of his message
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 2, 1999
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      I wrote:
      > There is no reliable evidence that HJ claimed to be the Messiah. This > was a role foisted on him by others, probably as a result of his > message of devotion to God's Kingdom (as an in-breaking order, not > announcement of its "coming" in the by & by).

      Antonio Jerez replied:

      > Maybe it is true that Jesus never claimed openly to be the Messiah. But
      > maybe the question should be put in another way: did he have any messianic
      > consciousness?

      The thing that always puzzled me about the liberal preoccupation with
      the "messianic consciousness" of Jesus is how one can know what someone
      else is conscious of apart from what s/he says. If Jesus cannot be
      proven to have explicitly claimed to be the MESSIAH (or even said
      anything about a Messiah), then it is highly doubtful that HIS
      consciousness was "Messianic." Those who demonstrated a "messianic
      consciousness" were those early Jews (like Peter in the Synoptics &
      Andrew in John) who cast Jesus into a Messianic role.

      IF one accepts the synoptic accounts of the triumphal entry into
      Jerusalem (in which J seems to deliberately set up a literal fulfillment
      of Zech 9:9) as historical, one MIGHT argue that HJ demonstrated a
      "messianic consciousness." The problem is the Johannine account of this
      incident clearly specifies that the association of J's entry into
      Jerusalem with Zech 9:9 was something that occurred *in the minds of J's
      disciples* only after his crucifixion/resurrection. So how can one prove
      that this messianic text was in HJ's own consciousness when & if he
      entered Jerusalem riding on an ass? Unless one adopts the unproveable
      circular logic that HJ must have been & known himself to be what his
      followers claimed he was, even if he himself never explicitly admitted
      it, there is no way to demonstrate that he had a MESSIANIC consciousness
      of any kind.

      > Did he consider himself specially chosen by God and in a special
      > position visavi God?

      The question is: did he ever CLAIM this? Outside of GJohn one has to
      look very hard to find texts that would prove that HJ claimed a "special
      relationship" for himself to God that was not open to be shared by
      others. And those few passages are NOT consistent with a wealth of other
      Jesus sayings that presuppose precisely the opposite. E.g.:

      1. He says: "WHOEVER does the will of my Father is my brother, etc." [To
      identify others as one's spiritual siblings is precisely to deny a
      unique filial relationship to God.]

      2. He instructs others to address God as THEIR OWN Father (e.g., Lord's
      prayer), urges them to imitate THEIR Father's tolerance (Matt 5:45ff),
      assures that that THEIR Father knows their needs (Matt 7:11 par) &
      numbered the hairs of THEIR heads (Matt 10:29f par).

      3. He stresses that in God's BASILEIA it is not those who are first but
      those who are least that count & he insists that ANYONE who do not
      become like a kindergartener (WS PAIDION) is excluded from God's
      BASILEIA (Mark 10:15 par).

      It is easy to see why people who heard these things would conclude that
      the speaker was somebody really special. But it is practically
      inconceivable that the the person who said all this would go around
      claiming, "Look at me, I'm special!" or even think of himself as such.

      Of course, the HJ who said all this must have had a very clear vision of
      common people's relationship to God & felt compelled to get the message
      to them. In old Methodist parlance, we'd have to say he "had a
      calling"--like that Oxford don, John Wesley, & others who felt compelled
      to conduct a mission to those who were in a hopeless position on the
      margins of society. But so did any of the Hebrew prophets from Amos to
      Isaiah & none of them seems to have developed a Messianic consciousness.
      It was their calling not their persons that they considered "special."
      The "special position" that any of these was conscious of--including
      Jesus--was vis a vis the historical moment rather than vis a vis God.
      God let them see a task to be done that others were unwilling to assume
      (Isaiah when Uzziah died, Jeremiah when Nebuchadnezzar arose, Ezekiel
      when the exile began, Jesu when JB was executed). And all of them,
      including HJ, stressed their common human weaknesses rather than flaunt
      their superiority over others. HJ even seems to have considered himself
      dispensible once he enlisted others to pick up his torch.


      > What does his choice of a special group of 12 (himself not
      > included) tell us about his perception of himself?

      What it tells me is that he did not try to coopt leadership for himself
      & direct everything on his own. In Hebrew tradition the 12 has generally
      represented an anti-centralizing pluralistic vision of God's chosen. The
      only possible exception I know of may have been the council of 12 at
      Qumran. But we know next to nothing about how this council of 12
      actually functioned. One MIGHT even argue that the choice of 12
      represented a deliberate attempt to "de-Judaize" Israel by restoring a
      vision of the inclusion of tribes other than those who identified
      themselves with Judah. The authors of the DSS seem to have had something
      of this sort in mind (cf. IHO #236) URL:

      http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/eschaton.html#Judah

      > I agree with Mahlon that Jesus preached the Kingdom as an already in-breaking
      > order but the early tradition from Paul to Luke does also clearly indicate that
      > the full coming of the Kingdom was going to be a miraculous event in the near
      > "by & by". God's Kingdom is both a present and future reality in Jesus' preaching.
      >

      And I agree with Antonio--at least up until his final phrase "in Jesus'
      preaching." I would argue that HJ's view of the kingdom includes the
      future but would question whether those gospel sayings that represent
      the KofG as a future "miraculous event" can be reliably traced to HJ.
      True, the gospel writers & Paul shared an apocalyptic view of the KofG
      as an imminent order with other Jews (see the Qaddish: IHO #120) URL:

      http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/prayer.html#qaddish

      But there is nothing futuristic or dramatically imminent about the
      images that HJ chose to represent the KofG: mustard seed, leaven, a
      provident father, etc. In fact, Jesus seems to know nothing of Paul's
      claim that flesh & blood cannot inherit the KofG when he proclaims that
      it is the property of paupers & children. So I think it likely that
      early Jewish Christian writers may have thought they knew what HJ meant
      by the KofG, but tended to impose their concepts of it upon him. I think
      HJ more likely represented the KofG as accessible to anyone whenever
      s/he was willing to identify with those whom society tended to put on
      the bottom of the totem pole. And for this reason I think it highly
      unlikely that HJ thought of himself as special any more than a Francis
      of Assisi or a Mother Teresa or a Mahatma Gandhi or a Martin Luther
      King---all of whom probably understood HJ better than most scholars or
      church goers.

      Shalom!


      Mahlon

      --

      *********************

      Mahlon H. Smith, http://religion.rutgers.edu/mhsmith.html
      Associate Professor
      Department of Religion
      Rutgers University
      New Brunswick NJ

      Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
      http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/

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    • Lewis Reich
      On 3 Jun 99, at 4:08, Mike Grondin wrote:Not only reminiscint of the old Judean dream of reuniting the 12 tribes (under a new Jacob, no less!), but also
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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        On 3 Jun 99, at 4:08, Mike Grondin wrote:

        > Not only reminiscint of the old Judean dream of
        > reuniting the 12 tribes (under a new Jacob, no less!), but also
        > constituting in themselves the "twelve witnesses" important in Jewish law.

        I can't recall offhand on what occasion twelve witnesses figure in
        Jewish law. What do you have in mind?

        Lewis Reich
        lbr@...



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      • Jack Kilmon
        Mark Goodacre wrote:Enormous thanks to Mahlon for a characteristically thought-provoking contribution, and apologies for commenting only on the opening
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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          Mark Goodacre wrote:

          > Enormous thanks to Mahlon for a characteristically thought-provoking
          > contribution, and apologies for commenting only on the opening paragraph.
          >
          > On 3 Jun 99 at 2:13, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:
          >
          > > The thing that always puzzled me about the liberal preoccupation with
          > > the "messianic consciousness" of Jesus is how one can know what someone
          > > else is conscious of apart from what s/he says. If Jesus cannot be
          > > proven to have explicitly claimed to be the MESSIAH (or even said
          > > anything about a Messiah), then it is highly doubtful that HIS
          > > consciousness was "Messianic." Those who demonstrated a "messianic
          > > consciousness" were those early Jews (like Peter in the Synoptics &
          > > Andrew in John) who cast Jesus into a Messianic role.
          >
          > Surely one of the ways of getting hints about someone's consciousness is to
          > look at that person's actions, especially actions that might seem to be in some
          > way characteristic or defining. Take, for example, the question of Jesus'
          > healing activity. Most of us are agreed that Jesus was known as a healer and
          > that this was felt to be one of his key attributes. What we then need to ask
          > is: might Jesus' healing activity have proceeded from a "messianic
          > consciousness"? Surely the answer here is yes, it might well have done.
          >
          > After all, a Jew in the first century who went around healing and evangelising
          > the poor might remind his fellow Jews of cherished Scriptures that connected
          > anointing with healing and evangelism, Scriptures like Isaiah 61. Indeed they
          > might have thought: how could one heal without being anointed by God to do so?
          >
          > But then the question must be: is there anything more than the possibility that
          > Jesus was perceived in this way? Is there any actual evidence that Jesus'
          > contemporaries construed his healing activity in the light of texts like Isaiah
          > 61? We know of Luke 4.18ff, but this is surely Lukan redaction. But that
          > does not exhaust the evidence. I am fond of looking at texts in Q and the
          > following one clearly alludes to Isaiah 61 and construes Jesus' healing and
          > preaching activity in messianic terms:
          >
          > [Mat 11:2-6] Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he
          > sent word by his disciples and said to him, "Are you he who is to come, or
          > shall we look for another?" And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what
          > you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are
          > cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good
          > news preached to them. And blessed is he who takes no offense at me."
          >
          > I think that one of the problems here is the old one of the loaded terms
          > "Messiah" and "Christ". When we start talking instead about "anointing", we
          > can ask whether or not Jesus might have thought himself to be "anointed" by
          > God. And my bet is yes -- it is highly likely that Jesus thought of himself as
          > one anointed by God for a special purpose -- his actions seem to demonstrate
          > this. If, however, one wants to call this "messianic consciousness", so be it.

          I cannot envision Yeshu's messages of the malkutha d'alaha and his grounding
          in an ethical apocalyptism seemingly based on Enochian/Daniel construction
          without a messianiac self-consciousness.

          Jack
          --
          ______________________________________________

          taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

          Jack Kilmon
          jkilmon@...

          http://www.historian.net



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        • Mark Goodacre
          Enormous thanks to Mahlon for a characteristically thought-provoking contribution, and apologies for commenting only on the opening paragraph.On 3 Jun 99
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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            Enormous thanks to Mahlon for a characteristically thought-provoking
            contribution, and apologies for commenting only on the opening paragraph.

            On 3 Jun 99 at 2:13, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:

            > The thing that always puzzled me about the liberal preoccupation with
            > the "messianic consciousness" of Jesus is how one can know what someone
            > else is conscious of apart from what s/he says. If Jesus cannot be
            > proven to have explicitly claimed to be the MESSIAH (or even said
            > anything about a Messiah), then it is highly doubtful that HIS
            > consciousness was "Messianic." Those who demonstrated a "messianic
            > consciousness" were those early Jews (like Peter in the Synoptics &
            > Andrew in John) who cast Jesus into a Messianic role.

            Surely one of the ways of getting hints about someone's consciousness is to
            look at that person's actions, especially actions that might seem to be in some
            way characteristic or defining. Take, for example, the question of Jesus'
            healing activity. Most of us are agreed that Jesus was known as a healer and
            that this was felt to be one of his key attributes. What we then need to ask
            is: might Jesus' healing activity have proceeded from a "messianic
            consciousness"? Surely the answer here is yes, it might well have done.

            After all, a Jew in the first century who went around healing and evangelising
            the poor might remind his fellow Jews of cherished Scriptures that connected
            anointing with healing and evangelism, Scriptures like Isaiah 61. Indeed they
            might have thought: how could one heal without being anointed by God to do so?

            But then the question must be: is there anything more than the possibility that
            Jesus was perceived in this way? Is there any actual evidence that Jesus'
            contemporaries construed his healing activity in the light of texts like Isaiah
            61? We know of Luke 4.18ff, but this is surely Lukan redaction. But that
            does not exhaust the evidence. I am fond of looking at texts in Q and the
            following one clearly alludes to Isaiah 61 and construes Jesus' healing and
            preaching activity in messianic terms:

            [Mat 11:2-6] Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he
            sent word by his disciples and said to him, "Are you he who is to come, or
            shall we look for another?" And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what
            you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are
            cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good
            news preached to them. And blessed is he who takes no offense at me."

            I think that one of the problems here is the old one of the loaded terms
            "Messiah" and "Christ". When we start talking instead about "anointing", we
            can ask whether or not Jesus might have thought himself to be "anointed" by
            God. And my bet is yes -- it is highly likely that Jesus thought of himself as
            one anointed by God for a special purpose -- his actions seem to demonstrate
            this. If, however, one wants to call this "messianic consciousness", so be it.

            Mark
            --------------------------------------
            Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
            Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
            University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
            Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

            http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
            New Testament Web Resources
            Mark Without Q
            Aseneth Home Page

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          • Mahlon H. Smith
            Austin Meredith is currently unable to post directly to list due to an administrative snafu in his communications network. So he asked me to post the following
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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              Austin Meredith is currently unable to post directly to list due to an
              administrative snafu in his communications network. So he asked me to
              post the following response to this thread on his behalf:

              -----

              To: crosstalk2@egroups.com
              From: Austin Meredith <Kouroo@...>
              Subject: Re: [Xtalk] Re: synedrion vs sanhedrin
              Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:55:23 -0700

              Mahlon Smith wrote:
              > There is no reliable evidence that HJ claimed to be the Messiah.
              > This was a role foisted on him by others, probably as a result of his
              message
              > of devotion to God's Kingdom (as an in-breaking order, not announcement
              > of its "coming" in the by & by).

              Antonio Jerez replied:
              > Maybe it is true that Jesus never claimed openly to be the Messiah.
              > But maybe the question should be put in another way:
              > did he have any messianic consciousness? Did he consider himself
              > specially chosen by God and in a special position visavi God?

              To consider this question, perhaps it would help if we transfer it to
              another place and time more livid in all of our consciousnesses. What if
              Jesus had been born into between-the-wars Germany instead of into
              Roman-occupied Galilee? What if Jesus had needed to respond to a bunch
              of
              20th-Century volk who yearned for a Fuhrer before whom they could
              prostrate
              themselves, who would bring their nation justice and triumph among the
              nations? How would he need to respond to this? For sure, Jesus is not
              going
              to be their special Fuhrer and lead them off into a pogram eliminating
              the
              international Jewish conspiracy that is preventing them from taking
              their
              rightful place in the sun! No, he's going to say to them "Yeah, sure,
              I'm
              your Fuhrer all right -- and this horse Adolph I rode in on, shhh, he's
              my
              Army of Righteousness traveling incognito." In other words, he's going
              to
              mock the whole concept that spiritual leadership is intended to enhance
              group competitiveness.

              Fact is, the principle of the Messiah that was prevalent back then in
              Galilee and Judea was quite as politically and ethically fraught as the
              concept of the Fuhrerprinzip has been during our own lifetimes. One
              Messiah
              is worth a million murders.




              --

              *********************

              Mahlon H. Smith, http://religion.rutgers.edu/mhsmith.html
              Associate Professor
              Department of Religion
              Rutgers University
              New Brunswick NJ

              Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
              http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/

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            • Lewis Reich
              On 3 Jun 99, at 13:34, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:Fact is, the principle of the Messiah that was prevalent back then in Galilee and Judea was quite as
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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                On 3 Jun 99, at 13:34, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:

                > Fact is, the principle of the Messiah that was prevalent back then in
                > Galilee and Judea was quite as politically and ethically fraught as the
                > concept of the Fuhrerprinzip has been during our own lifetimes. One
                > Messiah is worth a million murders.

                I wonder if this doesn't overstate things a bit. The messiah of that
                time was expected, as far as I am aware, to be a national leader
                who would restore the independence and glory of the nation, but the
                Jewish idea of kingship was heavily constrained, at least in principle,
                by the strictures of Deuteronomy 17:15-20. "Thus he will not act
                haughtily towards his fellows" (lit. thus his heart shall not rise above
                his brothers). Hardly the divine right of kings, much less
                Fuehrerprinzip.

                Lewis Reich
                lbr@...

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              • Lewis Reich
                On 3 Jun 99, at 10:28, Jack Kilmon wrote:I cannot envision Yeshu s messages of the malkutha d alaha and his grounding in an ethical apocalyptism
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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                  On 3 Jun 99, at 10:28, Jack Kilmon wrote:

                  > I cannot envision Yeshu's messages of the malkutha d'alaha and his
                  > grounding in an ethical apocalyptism seemingly based on Enochian/Daniel
                  > construction without a messianiac self-consciousness.

                  *Malkhut shamayim* (kingdom, or sovereignty of heaven) was not, I
                  think, a new term. It is common in traditional Jewish literature,
                  particularly as *ohl malkhut shamayim* - the yoke of the kingdom
                  of heaven. If it had been a neologism of Jesus', and continued to
                  figure strongly in subseuquent development of the Yeshuine
                  movement and Christianity, I doubt that it would have made the jump
                  to rabbinic literature. Seems to me that it must have been current in
                  the Judaism of Jesus' time. So I'm not sure why it demands a
                  messianic self-consciousness, or perhaps it may not in general
                  have been based on Enoch/Daniel.

                  Lewis Reich
                  lbr@...

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                • Lewis Reich
                  On 3 Jun 99, at 16:06, Mark Goodacre wrote:What we then need to ask is: might Jesus healing activity have proceeded from a messianic consciousness ?
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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                    On 3 Jun 99, at 16:06, Mark Goodacre wrote:

                    > What we then need to ask is: might Jesus' healing activity have
                    > proceeded from a "messianic consciousness"? Surely the answer here
                    > is yes, it might well have done.

                    Surely the answer is also, it might well not have. Why should healing activity imply messianic consciousness.


                    > After all, a Jew in the first century who went around healing and
                    > evangelising the poor might remind his fellow Jews of cherished Scriptures
                    > that connected anointing with healing and evangelism, Scriptures like
                    > Isaiah 61. Indeed they might have thought: how could one heal without
                    > being anointed by God to do so?

                    Hanina ben Dosa apparently performed such healings in the first
                    century, and no one apparently felt he'd been anointed by God to do
                    so, certainly not in the literal sense of anointed which I assume
                    we're using here.

                    > I think that one of the problems here is the old one of the loaded terms
                    > "Messiah" and "Christ". When we start talking instead about "anointing",
                    > we can ask whether or not Jesus might have thought himself to be
                    > "anointed" by God. And my bet is yes -- it is highly likely that Jesus
                    > thought of himself as one anointed by God for a special purpose -- his
                    > actions seem to demonstrate this. If, however, one wants to call this
                    > "messianic consciousness", so be it.

                    My problem with this is that it seems to try to make "anointed" a
                    synonym for "selected" or "chosen". While it may have those
                    connotations in modern English, it remains to be shown that it did in
                    first century Aramaic or Hebrew in Judea.

                    Lewis Reich
                    lbr@...

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                  • BobSchacht@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/3/99 4:59:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, lbr@sprynet.com writes:On 3 Jun 99, at 16:06, Mark Goodacre wrote: What we then
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 3, 1999
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                      In a message dated 6/3/99 4:59:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
                      lbr@... writes:

                      > On 3 Jun 99, at 16:06, Mark Goodacre wrote:
                      >
                      > > What we then need to ask is: might Jesus' healing activity have
                      > > proceeded from a "messianic consciousness"? Surely the answer here
                      > > is yes, it might well have done.
                      >
                      > Surely the answer is also, it might well not have. Why should healing
                      > activity imply messianic consciousness.
                      >
                      >
                      > > After all, a Jew in the first century who went around healing and
                      > > evangelising the poor might remind his fellow Jews of cherished
                      Scriptures
                      > > that connected anointing with healing and evangelism, Scriptures like
                      > > Isaiah 61. Indeed they might have thought: how could one heal without
                      > > being anointed by God to do so?
                      >
                      > Hanina ben Dosa apparently performed such healings in the first
                      > century, and no one apparently felt he'd been anointed by God to do
                      > so, certainly not in the literal sense of anointed which I assume
                      > we're using here.
                      >
                      > > I think that one of the problems here is the old one of the loaded terms
                      > > "Messiah" and "Christ". When we start talking instead about "anointing",
                      > > we can ask whether or not Jesus might have thought himself to be
                      > > "anointed" by God. And my bet is yes -- it is highly likely that Jesus
                      > > thought of himself as one anointed by God for a special purpose -- his
                      > > actions seem to demonstrate this. If, however, one wants to call this
                      > > "messianic consciousness", so be it.
                      >
                      > My problem with this is that it seems to try to make "anointed" a
                      > synonym for "selected" or "chosen". While it may have those
                      > connotations in modern English, it remains to be shown that it did in
                      > first century Aramaic or Hebrew in Judea.
                      >
                      > Lewis Reich
                      > lbr@...
                      >

                      First, I would like to thank Antonio for starting this this thread. His
                      initial message might be instructive about the theme, "How to start a good
                      thread."

                      Second, with Mark I would like to thank Mahlon for his long and thoughtful
                      response to Antonio. This is good stuff.

                      Third, I want to thank Steve for his important contribution to the thread.

                      I think those who focussed on different meanings of the word "Messiah" are on
                      the right track here. I thought it was practically a truism that
                      1. the disciples thought they knew for sure what a Messiah was;
                      2. they decided (for whatever reasons) that Jesus was the Messiah;
                      3. Jesus steadfastly refused to fulfill their messianic expectations; and yet
                      4. Jesus did not plainly renounce (so far as is known) the role of Messiah,
                      even though he had many occasions to do so (famously at the "trial" scenes)

                      Furthermore, there is the ambiguous relationship between messiahship and
                      being "anointed," as already pointed out in this thread. Surely, the messiah
                      was supposed to be anointed, but not everyone who was anointed was the
                      messiah (some were kings, but in Hab. 3:13 it is the whole people who are
                      anointed.) Furthermore, one could be anointed by oil, or one could be
                      anointed by the Holy Spirit (or spirit of God). And, as has been pointed out,
                      one could be anointed by the spirit of God (e.g., the prophets) without being
                      the Messiah.

                      So the constellation messiah+anointed+spirit was ambiguous and had numerous
                      possible applications. Various members of the Jewish public, and the gospel
                      writers, were sometimes guilty of the fallacy of affirming the consequent
                      (e.g. The Messiah must be anointed, therefore someone who is anointed must be
                      the Messiah).

                      But the whole point of this thread was to what extent was *Jesus* aware of
                      this, and to what extent did he accept it as a self-designation?

                      I am toying with the idea that *Jesus himself* was ambivalent about this.
                      That is (contrary to those who always assume I'm some sort of
                      fundamentalist), I wonder if he thought maybe he was, but wasn't quite
                      convinced-- all the way to Gethsemane and the Cross.

                      Here's the mode of historical reasoning: If a particular role is
                      controversially attributed to a historical figure, and if the external
                      evidence (e.g., what people thought, documentary evidence, etc.) is
                      ambiguous, then perhaps also the internal evidence (i.e., what the figure
                      himself/herself thought) was probably also ambiguous.

                      Sorry, but I've left out all the footnotes (don't have time to look them all
                      up) except the Hab., and am relying mostly on memory, so if I am wrong about
                      any of the above, please correct me.

                      Bob
                      nau.edu

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                    • Mahlon H. Smith
                      Lewis Reich wrote: On 3 Jun 99, at 13:34, Mahlon H. Smith wrote: Fact is, the principle of the Messiah that was prevalent back then in Galilee
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 4, 1999
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                        Lewis Reich wrote:
                        >
                        > On 3 Jun 99, at 13:34, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:
                        >
                        > > Fact is, the principle of the Messiah that was prevalent back then in
                        > > Galilee and Judea was quite as politically and ethically fraught as the
                        > > concept of the Fuhrerprinzip has been during our own lifetimes. One
                        > > Messiah is worth a million murders.
                        >

                        Correction, Lewis. I did not "write" this. I was merely mechanically
                        forwarding to list a note from Austin Meredith who has been temporarily
                        silenced by a change in his school's e-mail policy.
                        --

                        *********************

                        Mahlon H. Smith, http://religion.rutgers.edu/mhsmith.html
                        Associate Professor
                        Department of Religion
                        Rutgers University
                        New Brunswick NJ

                        Into His Own: Perspective on the World of Jesus
                        http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/

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                      • Liz Fried
                        Hello All, I ve been enjoying this thread on the Messianic consciousness of Jesus, but something has been nagging at me in the back of my mind. GMark makes
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 4, 1999
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                          Hello All,
                          I've been enjoying this thread on the Messianic consciousness of Jesus, but
                          something has been nagging at me in the back of my mind. GMark makes clear
                          that the desciples did not understand who Jesus really was. Does that mean
                          his true nature as Son of God, or could that refer to his nature as the
                          Messiah? It seems to me that GMark is telling us that even the Messianic
                          aspects of Jesus' personality did not become apparent until after the
                          resurrection. I think this is the point of Frederickson's book _From Jesus
                          to Christ_. If this is so, then aspects of his life which we think would
                          have been interpreted by his desciples as Messianic, were likely read back
                          into his life by the post-resurrection community.

                          Liz

                          Lisbeth S. Fried
                          Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
                          New York University
                          51 Washington Sq. S.
                          New York, NY 10012
                          lqf9256@...
                          lizfried@...


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                        • Lewis Reich
                          On 4 Jun 99, at 9:06, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:Lewis Reich wrote: On 3 Jun 99, at 13:34, Mahlon H. Smith wrote: Fact is, the principle of
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 4, 1999
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                            On 4 Jun 99, at 9:06, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:

                            > Lewis Reich wrote:
                            > >
                            > > On 3 Jun 99, at 13:34, Mahlon H. Smith wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Fact is, the principle of the Messiah that was prevalent back then in
                            > > > Galilee and Judea was quite as politically and ethically fraught as the
                            > > > concept of the Fuhrerprinzip has been during our own lifetimes. One
                            > > > Messiah is worth a million murders.
                            > >
                            >
                            > Correction, Lewis. I did not "write" this. I was merely mechanically
                            > forwarding to list a note from Austin Meredith who has been temporarily
                            > silenced by a change in his school's e-mail policy.

                            My apologies, Mahlon, for being careless with my"reply" attribution.

                            Lewis Reich
                            lbr@...

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