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[XTalk] Re: Meier's Criterion

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  • Lewis Reich
    ... I m not sure I understand why students of the historical Jesus should hope that the motives for his execution were directly related to his ministry
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 1, 2000
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      On 30 Dec 99, at 17:57, Steven Carr wrote:

      > Explaining why Jesus was killed is necessary. Students of the historical
      > Jesus have to hope that that the motives for his execution were directly
      > related to his ministry, rather than being a random crackdown by Pilate on
      > religious 'extremists.'

      I'm not sure I understand why students of the historical Jesus should
      "hope that the motives for his execution were directly related to his
      ministry" rather than try to investigate whether indeed that was so. Could
      you explain a bit further what you mean?

      Lewis Reich
    • Lewis Reich
      ... I don t think so; isn t it more like asserting that B, C, & D would not have preserved and cherished writings that contained an embarrassing X unless X
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 1, 2000
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        On 31 Dec 99, at 9:39, Neil wrote:

        > I have never followed the logic of this one. Is it not asserting that we
        > know A would not have invented X simply because B, C & D were embarrassed
        > by X?

        I don't think so; isn't it more like asserting that B, C, & D would not have
        preserved and cherished writings that contained an embarrassing X unless
        X were regarded as true and therefore undeniable?

        Lewis Reich
      • Steven Carr
        In message , Lewis Reich writes ... Trying to investige that this was so would be desirable.
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 1, 2000
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          In message <200001012228.RAA27009@...>, Lewis
          Reich <lbr@...> writes
          >On 30 Dec 99, at 17:57, Steven Carr wrote:
          >
          >> Explaining why Jesus was killed is necessary. Students of the historical
          >> Jesus have to hope that that the motives for his execution were directly
          >> related to his ministry, rather than being a random crackdown by Pilate on
          >> religious 'extremists.'
          >
          >I'm not sure I understand why students of the historical Jesus should
          >"hope that the motives for his execution were directly related to his
          >ministry" rather than try to investigate whether indeed that was so. Could
          >you explain a bit further what you mean?

          Trying to investige that this was so would be desirable. My (possibly
          mistaken) impression was that it was assumed a priori by Meier's
          criteria - ie something was to be regarded as more authentic if it
          fitted the criterion that the motives for his execution were directly
          related to his ministry, rather than having that come out as a
          conclusion of the investigation.

          --
          Steven Carr
        • Sukie Curtis
          ... I think Crossan puts it this way--that any reconstruction of the historical Jesus must be able to make sense of the fact that he was both hailed by some of
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 1, 2000
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            Steven Carr wrote:
            >
            > In message <200001012228.RAA27009@...>, Lewis
            > Reich <lbr@...> writes
            > >On 30 Dec 99, at 17:57, Steven Carr wrote:
            > >
            > >> Explaining why Jesus was killed is necessary. Students of the
            > historical
            > >> Jesus have to hope that that the motives for his execution
            > were directly
            > >> related to his ministry, rather than being a random crackdown
            > by Pilate on
            > >> religious 'extremists.'
            > >
            > >I'm not sure I understand why students of the historical Jesus should
            > >"hope that the motives for his execution were directly related to his
            > >ministry" rather than try to investigate whether indeed that was
            > so. Could
            > >you explain a bit further what you mean?
            >
            > Trying to investige that this was so would be desirable. My (possibly
            > mistaken) impression was that it was assumed a priori by Meier's
            > criteria - ie something was to be regarded as more authentic if it
            > fitted the criterion that the motives for his execution were directly
            > related to his ministry, rather than having that come out as a
            > conclusion of the investigation.

            I think Crossan puts it this way--that any reconstruction of the historical
            Jesus must be able to make sense of the fact that he was both hailed by some
            of his fellow Jews as messiah and feared/hated by others and executed by
            Roman authorities. That some said, "Let's worship him," while others said,
            "Let's get rid of him." Were his execution taken as a random accident
            having nothing to do with his life and ministry, our understandings of Jesus
            would be rather impoverished, and it's hard to imagine his death having been
            portrayed as so significant. The Romans may have crucified many, but they
            didn't crucify everyone they wished to get rid of.

            Sukie Curtis
            Cumberland Foreside, Maine


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