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[XTalk] Re: Historical Jesus Syllabus

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  • Groupcolby@aol.com
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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    • Groupcolby@aol.com
      In Ref: Brian Tucker J.D.Crossan is a fine start. Any others?
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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        In Ref: Brian Tucker

        J.D.Crossan is a fine start. Any others?
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Brian, Are you asking about books which are actually attempts to engage in the quest of, or to reconstruct, the HJ, or are you looking for surveys of how
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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          Brian Tucker wrote:

          > Greetings
          >
          > I have just been asked to prepare a prospectus for an undergrad class on
          > the Historical Jesus. I would like some suggestions from list members as
          > to what would be the best introductory textboook(s). Also, if anyone
          > would like to share a copy of their syllabus with me it would be greatly
          > appreciated. The syllabus may be sent offline. I checked the archives
          > and I did not see any example syllabi listed.
          >

          Brian,

          Are you asking about books which are actually attempts to engage in the quest
          of, or to reconstruct, the HJ, or are you looking for surveys of how those who
          have been on the front lines have been doing so?

          Yours,

          Jeffrey
          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson
          7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
          Chicago, Illinois 60626
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Well, in addition to Meier s 2 of the projected 3 Vols on HJ and now Paula Fredricksen s brand new Jesus book, I would suggest at least four books: M.A.
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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            Brian Tucker wrote:

            > Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
            > > Brian,
            > >
            > > Are you asking about books which are actually attempts to engage in the quest of, or >to reconstruct, the HJ, or are you looking for surveys of how those who have been on >the front lines have been doing so?
            >
            > Jeffrey
            >
            > It would seem that the first type would be more in line with the aim of
            > the course. I am hoping to use some of the "front line" books as extra
            > reading on reserve in the library. I have a feeling that most of the
            > students will not have much awareness of the quest in general and I am
            > concerned about the right textbook to use. I have most everything JS has
            > put out, N.T. Wright's material and other responses to JS books, but I
            > am concerned that some of these works may not be appropriate for a
            > classroom setting. The ideal book would be one that, (1) Provides an
            > historical overview of the quest. (2) Provides a basic guide to
            > historical research methods, (form criticism, redaction, etc.). (3)
            > Provides bibliography and copious footnotes. (4) Interacts with
            > archaeology and other related disciplines. (5) Provides an even handed
            > overview of the differing current thoughts. (6) One that relies heavily
            > on Q...just joking on that one. Is there a book out there like that? I
            > may just have to write my own...yea, right!
            >

            Well, in addition to Meier's 2 of the projected 3 Vols on HJ and now Paula Fredricksen's brand new Jesus book, I would suggest at least four books:

            M.A. Powell's _Jesus as a Figure in History_
            Ben Witherington's _The Jesus Quest_
            Hanson and Oakman's _Palestine in the Time of Jesus_
            and W. Barnes Tatum's _In Quest of Jesus_ (revised ed.)

            You should also be aware that IVP has just come out with a full length book on various aspects of Tom Wright's JVG.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey
            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson
            7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
            Chicago, Illinois 60626
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Not exactly a classroom book -- at least at an undergraduate level -- but one you ll want to consult continuously is Theissen & Mertz _The Historical
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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              Brian Tucker wrote:

              > Greetings
              >
              > This may help the discussion. Here is what I am bouncing around right
              > now:
              >
              > B. Throckmorton, Gospel Parallels
              > E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus
              > J. D. Crossan, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography
              > L. T. Johnson, The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the Historical
              > Jesus
              >
              > I am a little concerned about putting this list out there because one
              > may assume something about my intent that is not accurate. I am open to
              > suggestions and criticisms concerning the use of these books in a
              > classroom setting.
              >

              Not exactly a classroom book -- at least at an undergraduate level -- but one
              you'll want to consult continuously is Theissen & Mertz _The Historical
              Jesus_. And I would also urge all of your students to pick up the _Dictionary
              of Jesus and the Gospels_. All of the background material, methodological
              issues, etc., you say you want to explore will be found between them.

              Yours,

              Jeffrey

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson
              7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
              Chicago, Illinois 60626
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Brian Tucker
              ... Jeffrey It would seem that the first type would be more in line with the aim of the course. I am hoping to use some of the front line books as extra
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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                Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                > Brian,
                >
                > Are you asking about books which are actually attempts to engage in the quest of, or >to reconstruct, the HJ, or are you looking for surveys of how those who have been on >the front lines have been doing so?

                Jeffrey

                It would seem that the first type would be more in line with the aim of
                the course. I am hoping to use some of the "front line" books as extra
                reading on reserve in the library. I have a feeling that most of the
                students will not have much awareness of the quest in general and I am
                concerned about the right textbook to use. I have most everything JS has
                put out, N.T. Wright's material and other responses to JS books, but I
                am concerned that some of these works may not be appropriate for a
                classroom setting. The ideal book would be one that, (1) Provides an
                historical overview of the quest. (2) Provides a basic guide to
                historical research methods, (form criticism, redaction, etc.). (3)
                Provides bibliography and copious footnotes. (4) Interacts with
                archaeology and other related disciplines. (5) Provides an even handed
                overview of the differing current thoughts. (6) One that relies heavily
                on Q...just joking on that one. Is there a book out there like that? I
                may just have to write my own...yea, right!

                It seems like journal articles are going to have an important role in
                the development of a full treatment of this topic. Any suggestions?

                Thanks
                Brian Tucker
                Riverview, MI
                jbtucker@...
              • David C. Hindley
                ... of the course. I am hoping to use some of the front line books as extra reading on reserve in the library. I have a feeling that most of the students
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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                  brian tucker <jbtucke-@...> wrote:

                  >>It would seem that the first type would be more in line with the aim
                  of the course. I am hoping to use some of the "front line" books as
                  extra reading on reserve in the library. I have a feeling that most of
                  the students will not have much awareness of the quest in general and I
                  am concerned about the right textbook to use. I have most everything JS
                  has put out, N.T. Wright's material and other responses to JS books,
                  but I am concerned that some of these works may not be appropriate for
                  a classroom setting. The ideal book would be one that, (1) Provides an
                  historical overview of the quest. (2) Provides a basic guide to
                  historical research methods, (form criticism, redaction, etc.). (3)
                  Provides bibliography and copious footnotes. (4) Interacts with
                  archaeology and other related disciplines. (5) Provides an even handed
                  overview of the differing current thoughts.<<

                  Whew! You may want to use more than one "textbook" for your class.

                  For an introduction to the original quest, I'd suggest going right to
                  Schweitzer's _The Quest of the Historical Jesus_. It has everything you
                  ask for, is witty (but starts to drag about half way through - his
                  sequel _Paul and His Interpreters_ was actually better written IMO),
                  and well known. Scheitzer does interject his own fairly liberal POV
                  (for his day), but this drawback can be turned to advantage by pointing
                  out that Schweitzer also freely admits and accepts the fact that none
                  of the scholars who engaged in the quest up to his time had been able
                  to free themselves from their own biases either. It just comes with the
                  territory.

                  I am not totally happy with much of what is available (in print)
                  dealing with the 20th century continuation of the quest, but I would
                  strongly recommend J P Meier's two volume _A Marginal Jew_, which is
                  thorough and heavily footnoted. Meier is moderate, and he always
                  reaches a moderate position when concluding each section of the
                  investigation, but to get there he also does not shy away from asking
                  the tough questions and covers a wide variety of positions on each
                  topic, and does so in a fairly objective manner.

                  I think Meier's volumes would compliment Schweitzer's very well. Also,
                  there is the advantage that your students will more than likely NOT
                  sell these three books back to the bookstore after your class is over,
                  if they have any real interest in this topic at all.

                  On the other hand, for this latter period of the quest there is always
                  Ben Witherington's _The Jesus Quest_ (if you don't mind his
                  conservative bias), and Funk's _Honest to Jesus_ (if you don't mind his
                  liberal bias). The drawbacks will be lack of good footnotes, but these
                  names are relatively well known among well read laypersons. You'd
                  probably have to get both, and while they each cost a little less than
                  a volume of Meier's work it seems to make no sense to me to have them
                  lay out $25 each when an additional $10 will get them a much more
                  useful "textbook." Personally, I think you are much better off with
                  Meier's two volumes.

                  Regards,

                  Dave Hindley

                  Disclaimer: The terms "liberal" and "concervative" were here intended
                  to represent relative positions in the religious spectrum and were not
                  used, nor intended to be taken, in a negative (or for that matter, a
                  positive) manner. The use made of these terms does not necessarily
                  reflect the position of the author of this post. However, if you agree
                  with them then they are the positions of this author, and if you do not
                  agree with them then they are someone else's positions. This disclaimer
                  is void where prohibited by law.
                • Brian Tucker
                  Greetings This may help the discussion. Here is what I am bouncing around right now: B. Throckmorton, Gospel Parallels E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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                    Greetings

                    This may help the discussion. Here is what I am bouncing around right
                    now:

                    B. Throckmorton, Gospel Parallels
                    E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus
                    J. D. Crossan, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography
                    L. T. Johnson, The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the Historical
                    Jesus

                    I am a little concerned about putting this list out there because one
                    may assume something about my intent that is not accurate. I am open to
                    suggestions and criticisms concerning the use of these books in a
                    classroom setting.

                    Thanks
                    Brian Tucker
                    Riverview, MI
                    jbtucker@...
                  • Brian Tucker
                    ... What is the title of the above mentioned book? I have used Witherington s book and I probably was planning on developing some of my presentations around
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 3, 1999
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                      > You should also be aware that IVP has just come out with a full length >book on various aspects of Tom Wright's JVG.

                      What is the title of the above mentioned book? I have used
                      Witherington's book and I probably was planning on developing some of my
                      presentations around it. Thanks for the info, I'll locate the others and
                      give them a look.

                      Thanks
                      Brian Tucker
                      Riverview, MI
                      jbtucker@...
                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      ... It is called _Jesus and the Restoration of Israel_ and it s edited by Carey Newman. On the same topic, that is, the topic of a reconstruction of Jesus and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                        Brian Tucker wrote:

                        > > You should also be aware that IVP has just come out with a full length >book on various aspects of Tom Wright's JVG.
                        >
                        > What is the title of the above mentioned book? I have used
                        > Witherington's book and I probably was planning on developing some of my
                        > presentations around it. Thanks for the info, I'll locate the others and
                        > give them a look.

                        It is called _Jesus and the Restoration of Israel_ and it's edited by Carey Newman. On the same topic, that is, the topic
                        of a reconstruction of Jesus and Israel, one more book should be consulted -- that of Scot McKnight entitled _A New Vision
                        for Israel: The Teaching of Jesus in National Context (Eerdmans).

                        Yours,

                        Jeffrey
                        --
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson
                        7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                        Chicago, Illinois 60626
                        e-mail jgibson000@...
                      • Sean P. Kealy C.S.Sp
                        Dear Jeffrey, I would recommend Jesus as a Figure in History by my friend Mark Allan Powell Westminster John Knox Press. This provedes a splendid overview and
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                          Dear Jeffrey, I would recommend Jesus as a Figure in History by my friend
                          Mark Allan Powell Westminster John Knox Press. This provedes a splendid
                          overview and a very good base for discussion. Sean p. Kealy C.S.Sp





                          At 10:12 PM 12/3/99 -0800, you wrote:
                          >Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                          >> Brian,
                          >>
                          >> Are you asking about books which are actually attempts to engage in the
                          quest of, or >to reconstruct, the HJ, or are you looking for surveys of how
                          those who have been on >the front lines have been doing so?
                          >
                          >Jeffrey
                          >
                          >It would seem that the first type would be more in line with the aim of
                          >the course. I am hoping to use some of the "front line" books as extra
                          >reading on reserve in the library. I have a feeling that most of the
                          >students will not have much awareness of the quest in general and I am
                          >concerned about the right textbook to use. I have most everything JS has
                          >put out, N.T. Wright's material and other responses to JS books, but I
                          >am concerned that some of these works may not be appropriate for a
                          >classroom setting. The ideal book would be one that, (1) Provides an
                          >historical overview of the quest. (2) Provides a basic guide to
                          >historical research methods, (form criticism, redaction, etc.). (3)
                          >Provides bibliography and copious footnotes. (4) Interacts with
                          >archaeology and other related disciplines. (5) Provides an even handed
                          >overview of the differing current thoughts. (6) One that relies heavily
                          >on Q...just joking on that one. Is there a book out there like that? I
                          >may just have to write my own...yea, right!
                          >
                          >It seems like journal articles are going to have an important role in
                          >the development of a full treatment of this topic. Any suggestions?
                          >
                          >Thanks
                          >Brian Tucker
                          >Riverview, MI
                          >jbtucker@...
                          >
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                        • gte_enerspace
                          The best undergrad course I have taken on the Historical Jesus, included the following materials: Holy Bible...the more versions in the class the better
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                            The best undergrad course I have taken on the Historical Jesus, included the
                            following materials:

                            Holy Bible...the more versions in the class the better
                            Synopsis of the Four Gospels...Kurt Aland (may be out of print)
                            Films on Jesus....there are 6-8 that we reviewed in the class

                            Please see my website, below, and go to 'Jesus' button on left of page...for
                            much of the work performed and the films reviewed in that class.


                            David G. Beshore, P.E.
                            http://www.enerspace.com
                            enerspac@...
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Brian Tucker" <jbtucker@...>
                            To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 4:47 PM
                            Subject: [XTalk] Historical Jesus Syllabus


                            > Greetings
                            >
                            > I have just been asked to prepare a prospectus for an undergrad class on
                            > the Historical Jesus. I would like some suggestions from list members as
                            > to what would be the best introductory textboook(s). Also, if anyone
                            > would like to share a copy of their syllabus with me it would be greatly
                            > appreciated. The syllabus may be sent offline. I checked the archives
                            > and I did not see any example syllabi listed.
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > Brian Tucker, M.A., M.Div, D.Min (candidate)
                            > Princeton Bible College
                            > Riverview, MI
                            > jbtucker@...
                            >
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                          • Robert M Schacht
                            On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 22:31:00 -0800 Brian Tucker ... Did you mention what level this class is? Some of those texts are pretty heavy
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                              On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 22:31:00 -0800 Brian Tucker <jbtucker@...>
                              writes:
                              > Greetings
                              >
                              > This may help the discussion. Here is what I am bouncing around
                              > right
                              > now:
                              >
                              > B. Throckmorton, Gospel Parallels
                              > E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus
                              > J. D. Crossan, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography
                              > L. T. Johnson, The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the
                              > Historical
                              > Jesus
                              >
                              > I am a little concerned about putting this list out there because
                              > one
                              > may assume something about my intent that is not accurate. I am open
                              > to
                              > suggestions and criticisms concerning the use of these books in a
                              > classroom setting.
                              >
                              > Thanks
                              > Brian Tucker
                              > Riverview, MI

                              Did you mention what level this class is? Some of those texts are pretty
                              heavy going for any level below UG4. If it is an undergrad course, I
                              would suggest you might consider Stevan Davies' pithy New Testament
                              Fundamentals (Rev. ed.) as an introduction to some of the others you have
                              listed.

                              Bob
                            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                              ... An interesting approach -- so long as what one is studying is how faithful or unfaithful cinematic presentations of Jesus have been to a particular Gospel
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                                gte_enerspace wrote:

                                > The best undergrad course I have taken on the Historical Jesus, included the
                                > following materials:
                                >
                                > Holy Bible...the more versions in the class the better
                                > Synopsis of the Four Gospels...Kurt Aland (may be out of print)
                                > Films on Jesus....there are 6-8 that we reviewed in the class
                                >
                                > Please see my website, below, and go to 'Jesus' button on left of page...for
                                > much of the work performed and the films reviewed in that class.
                                >
                                > David G. Beshore, P.E.
                                > http://www.enerspace.com

                                An interesting approach -- so long as what one is studying is how faithful or
                                unfaithful cinematic presentations of Jesus have been to a particular Gospel or
                                a particular interpretation of it. But I feel compelled to say that it is
                                absolutely worthless as a tool for uncovering how the quest has actually been
                                carried out since it began or for familiarizing those who wish to become so with
                                the methodologies developed and presently employed to investigate, deal with,
                                and/or get behind the sources for reconstructing the HJ.

                                Yours,

                                Jeffrey
                                --
                                Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                e-mail jgibson000@...
                              • gte_enerspace
                                Please see more at the website on more critical scholarship on the subject. The examination of the cinematic Jesus, was absolutely critical in realizing how
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                                  Please see more at the website on more critical scholarship on the subject.
                                  The examination of the cinematic Jesus, was absolutely critical in realizing
                                  how influenced most of are of the media and hype surrounding Jesus,
                                  particularly as we are growing up. The demything of Jesus...is the first
                                  step, I am afraid, on anyones' adventure and investigation. You are talking
                                  about a first course, aren't you. Are you an academic?

                                  I have several areas where I have examined Crossan, etc. on the website You
                                  and I have only just begun.

                                  David G. Beshore, P.E.
                                  http://www.enerspace.com
                                  enerspac@...
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
                                  To: <crosstalk2@egroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 10:12 AM
                                  Subject: [XTalk] Re: Historical Jesus Syllabus


                                  > gte_enerspace wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > The best undergrad course I have taken on the Historical Jesus, included
                                  the
                                  > > following materials:
                                  > >
                                  > > Holy Bible...the more versions in the class the better
                                  > > Synopsis of the Four Gospels...Kurt Aland (may be out of print)
                                  > > Films on Jesus....there are 6-8 that we reviewed in the class
                                  > >
                                  > > Please see my website, below, and go to 'Jesus' button on left of
                                  page...for
                                  > > much of the work performed and the films reviewed in that class.
                                  > >
                                  > > David G. Beshore, P.E.
                                  > > http://www.enerspace.com
                                  >
                                  > An interesting approach -- so long as what one is studying is how faithful
                                  or
                                  > unfaithful cinematic presentations of Jesus have been to a particular
                                  Gospel or
                                  > a particular interpretation of it. But I feel compelled to say that it is
                                  > absolutely worthless as a tool for uncovering how the quest has actually
                                  been
                                  > carried out since it began or for familiarizing those who wish to become
                                  so with
                                  > the methodologies developed and presently employed to investigate, deal
                                  with,
                                  > and/or get behind the sources for reconstructing the HJ.
                                  >
                                  > Yours,
                                  >
                                  > Jeffrey
                                  > --
                                  > Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                  > 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                  > Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                  > e-mail jgibson000@...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
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                                • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                  ... Let s take a step back here. The original request for suggestions on books and syllabi for an HJ course came not from me but from Brian Tucker. More ... In
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                                    gte_enerspace wrote:
                                    Please see more at the website on more critical scholarship on the subject.
                                    The examination of the cinematic Jesus, was absolutely critical in realizing
                                    how influenced most of are of the media and hype surrounding Jesus,
                                    particularly as we are growing up.  The demything of Jesus...is the first
                                    step, I am afraid, on anyones' adventure and investigation.  You are talking
                                    about a first course, aren't you.
                                    Let's take a step back here. The original request for suggestions on books and syllabi for an HJ course came not from me but from Brian Tucker. More importantly, he asked for suggestions on material such that  (to quote him) it :
                                    (1) Provides an
                                    historical overview of the quest. (2) Provides a basic guide to
                                    historical research methods, (form criticism, redaction, etc.). (3)
                                    Provides bibliography and copious footnotes. (4) Interacts with
                                    archaeology and other related disciplines. (5) Provides an even handed
                                    overview of the differing current thoughts.


                                    In the light of these criteria, indeed, for anyone who wants to become aquatinted with the history of the quest and the options that serious historians have adopted,  I still maintain that watching a series of Jesus films has no value whatsoever. One or two in a course might help a teacher raise some issues, but a whole course devoted to them tells us little more about the HJ than watching Eroll Flynn's *They Dies with their Boots on* tells us about Custer or the methods that historians use in trying to recover and reconstruct the HC. 

                                    Moreover, while demythologizing Jesus **might** be a first step towards an interest in investigating the HJ, I think you overstate the case not only that it is the only thing that has or will cause anyone to become interested in engaging in the quest, but that seeing Jesus films -- which actually only serve to remythologize him -- is the best way to go about it. While it may have been so for you, I wonder how far this actually can be universalized? Indeed, I know people for whom particular Jesus films only caused a desire to reaffirm their orthodoxy and become resistant to scholarship..

                                    And as to your question:

                                     Are you an academic?
                                     
                                    both Oxford University, which conferred upon me a doctorate, and Loyola University, where I teach, seem to think so -- but don't let it get around. For a brief bio, see the "bios" link at the end of the XTalk home page (www.xtalk.org).

                                    Yours,

                                    Jeffrey
                                    --
                                    Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                    7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                    Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                    e-mail jgibson000@...
                                     

                                  • gte_enerspace
                                    Sorry, somehow lost the original author of this thread. Was an interesting dialogue, nevertheless. Film criticism is just as important as Form Criticism in
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                                      Sorry, somehow lost the original author of this thread.  Was an interesting dialogue, nevertheless.  Film criticism is just as important as Form Criticism in the quest, which you seem to be hooked on.
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 1:12 PM
                                      Subject: [XTalk] Re: Historical Jesus Syllabus

                                      gte_enerspace wrote:
                                      Please see more at the website on more critical scholarship on the subject.
                                      The examination of the cinematic Jesus, was absolutely critical in realizing
                                      how influenced most of are of the media and hype surrounding Jesus,
                                      particularly as we are growing up.  The demything of Jesus...is the first
                                      step, I am afraid, on anyones' adventure and investigation.  You are talking
                                      about a first course, aren't you.
                                      Let's take a step back here. The original request for suggestions on books and syllabi for an HJ course came not from me but from Brian Tucker. More importantly, he asked for suggestions on material such that  (to quote him) it :
                                      (1) Provides an
                                      historical overview of the quest. (2) Provides a basic guide to
                                      historical research methods, (form criticism, redaction, etc.). (3)
                                      Provides bibliography and copious footnotes. (4) Interacts with
                                      archaeology and other related disciplines. (5) Provides an even handed
                                      overview of the differing current thoughts.


                                      In the light of these criteria, indeed, for anyone who wants to become aquatinted with the history of the quest and the options that serious historians have adopted,  I still maintain that watching a series of Jesus films has no value whatsoever. One or two in a course might help a teacher raise some issues, but a whole course devoted to them tells us little more about the HJ than watching Eroll Flynn's *They Dies with their Boots on* tells us about Custer or the methods that historians use in trying to recover and reconstruct the HC. 

                                      Moreover, while demythologizing Jesus **might** be a first step towards an interest in investigating the HJ, I think you overstate the case not only that it is the only thing that has or will cause anyone to become interested in engaging in the quest, but that seeing Jesus films -- which actually only serve to remythologize him -- is the best way to go about it. While it may have been so for you, I wonder how far this actually can be universalized? Indeed, I know people for whom particular Jesus films only caused a desire to reaffirm their orthodoxy and become resistant to scholarship..

                                      And as to your question:

                                       Are you an academic?
                                       
                                      both Oxford University, which conferred upon me a doctorate, and Loyola University, where I teach, seem to think so -- but don't let it get around. For a brief bio, see the "bios" link at the end of the XTalk home page (www.xtalk.org).

                                      Yours,

                                      Jeffrey
                                      --
                                      Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                      7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                      Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                      e-mail jgibson000@...
                                       


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                                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                      ... I am rather astounded by this claim. Do you really believe that aesthetic criticism of something (Jesus films) that is often, at best, a third hand
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 4, 1999
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                                        gte_enerspace wrote:
                                        Sorry, somehow lost the original author of this thread.  Was an interesting dialogue, nevertheless.  Film criticism is just as important as Form Criticism in the quest, which you seem to be hooked on.


                                        I am rather astounded by this claim. Do you really believe that aesthetic criticism of something (Jesus films) that is often, at best,  a third hand interpretation (and which usually involves a rather uncareful and eclectic use) of NT and other ancient sources dealing with the HJ, is really on the same order methodologically and from an historiographic point of view as an historical-critical engagement with the sources themselves? Or that King of Kings is of the same historical and evidentiary value as Josephus' _War_? When did KofK become scripture, let alone an ancient source? Should we not then use the Urantia book, or the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ by Levi,  as well?

                                        In any case, I'd be grateful if you'd spare me your aphibolistic speculations of what I'm hooked on. I love Jesus films, owning many myself, and having even tried my hand once at making one. But I know enough not to regard them as anything like primary or useful historical evidence for the HJ.

                                        Yours,

                                        Jeffrey Gibson
                                        ---
                                        Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                        7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
                                        Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                        e-mail jgibson000@...
                                         

                                      • Mark Goodacre
                                        ... Might I suggest a means by which this debate can be resolved? On the one hand, there are many ways in which the study of Jesus films might help in the
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 6, 1999
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                                          On 4 Dec 99, at 19:29, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                                          > gte_enerspace wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Sorry, somehow lost the original author of this thread. Was an
                                          > > interesting dialogue, nevertheless. Film criticism is just as
                                          > > important as Form Criticism in the quest, which you seem to be hooked
                                          > > on.
                                          >
                                          > I am rather astounded by this claim. Do you really believe that
                                          > aesthetic criticism of something (Jesus films) that is often, at best, a
                                          > third hand interpretation (and which usually involves a rather uncareful
                                          > and eclectic use) of NT and other ancient sources dealing with the HJ, is
                                          > really on the same order methodologically and from an historiographic
                                          > point of view as an historical-critical engagement with the sources
                                          > themselves?

                                          Might I suggest a means by which this debate can be resolved? On
                                          the one hand, there are many ways in which the study of Jesus films
                                          might help "in the quest", as David Beshore affirms, e.g. they stimulate
                                          the imagination of the researcher and suggest fresh avenues for
                                          investigation by the historian. I use Jesus films in historical Jesus
                                          lectures, for example, to encourage students to think through certain
                                          themes in Jesus research.

                                          On the other hand, Jeffrey is of course correct that Jesus films can in
                                          no way be a primary source of information on the historical Jesus.

                                          While we are on the topic of Jesus films, I hope I may be excused a
                                          little shameless self-publicity. I have recently had an article published
                                          in _The Journal of Religion and Film_ entitled "Do You Think You're
                                          What They Say You Are? Reflections on Jesus Christ Superstar". It
                                          is available electronically at:

                                          http://www.unomaha.edu/~wwwjrf/JesusCss.htm

                                          Mark
                                          --------------------------------------
                                          Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                          Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                          University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                          Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

                                          http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                          The New Testament Gateway
                                          Mark Without Q
                                          Aseneth Home Page
                                        • Mark Goodacre
                                          In addition to all those mentioned, I would want to stress (for the umpteenth time - - sorry everyone) the value of E. P. Sanders & Margaret Davies, _Studying
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 6, 1999
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                                            In addition to all those mentioned, I would want to stress (for the umpteenth time -
                                            - sorry everyone) the value of E. P. Sanders & Margaret Davies, _Studying the
                                            Synoptic Gospels_ because (a) it has the requisite introduction to source & form
                                            criticism etc. for which Brian asked. This is rare in books dealing with the
                                            historical Jesus -- lamentably so -- and (b) it has such a good discussion of the
                                            criteria for doing Jesus research, ideally pitched for the beginning student. I
                                            recommend this book for students on my own Jesus course.

                                            Also not mentioned so far is C. J. Den Heyer's _Jesus Matters_ (ET, London:
                                            SCM, 1996), again an ideal student introduction. If it helps, I have a brief on the
                                            web, reproduced from an article I wrote in RRT in 1997,
                                            http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre/revnt1.htm#den Heyer

                                            Mark
                                            --------------------------------------
                                            Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                            Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                            University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                            Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

                                            http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                            The New Testament Gateway
                                            Mark Without Q
                                            Aseneth Home Page
                                          • Gail Dawson
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 8, 1999
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                                              > Brian, you may want to check out the following resources for syllabi if
                                              > someone hasn't directed you to them already:
                                              >
                                              > The AAR Syllabi Project web site has a collection of syllabi, some of
                                              > which are pertinent to the study of the Historical Jesus and Christian
                                              > origins--go to this link and look under "Christian Origins":
                                              > http://www.wlu.ca/~wwwaar/course_syllabi.html
                                              >
                                              > Additionally, the following link on the AAR page will take you to
                                              > additional resources on the Web for locating religious studies syllabi
                                              > (but you'll have to scan through them to find ones that pertain
                                              > specifically to the Historical Jesus):
                                              >
                                              > http://www.wlu.ca/~wwwaar/syllabi_online.html
                                              >
                                              > The AAR home page is at this link: http://www.aar-site.org/
                                              >
                                              > Hope this helps,
                                              >
                                              > Gail Dawson
                                              > Edinburg, Va.
                                            • Mark Goodacre
                                              One or two new web resources may be of interest to the list. John P. Meier has a most interesting article on The Present State of the ‘Third Quest’ for
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 8, 1999
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                                                One or two new web resources may be of interest to the list. John P. Meier has a
                                                most interesting article on "The Present State of the ‘Third Quest’ for the
                                                Historical Jesus" in the current issue of the now on-line Biblica:

                                                http://www.bsw.org/project/biblica/bibl80/Comm11.htm

                                                (Good to see that he mentions Steve Davies's book in his section on the
                                                importance of healing, though no discussion of it).

                                                I have also recently added a section on "Women & Gender" to my NT Gateway,
                                                address at:

                                                http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre/links.htm

                                                Mark




                                                --------------------------------------
                                                Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                                Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                                University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                                Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

                                                http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                                The New Testament Gateway
                                                Mark Without Q
                                                Aseneth Home Page
                                              • Dennis C. Duling
                                                This past semester I tried Theissen on my undergraduates. Their first exam was horrible; their second exam was quite good. However, I have worked about as hard
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Dec 9, 1999
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                                                  This past semester I tried Theissen on my undergraduates. Their first
                                                  exam was horrible; their second exam was quite good. However, I have
                                                  worked about as hard as I ever have on a course -- a lot of it
                                                  explaining Theissen. The translation at points needs some improvement,
                                                  too. So I would say that it is only for the bold and very ambitious, as
                                                  far as an undergraduate text goes.
                                                  I'll go back to a simpler text for my undergraduates. W. Barnes Tatum
                                                  has a new edition of his little classic out, and I'll try it next time,
                                                  along with one of the newer general books on Jesus, perhaps D. Allison
                                                  or B. Ehrman on the apocalyptic-millennial side and s.t. from the
                                                  Q-Thomas axis on the other side (Crossan), or perhaps (again) Borg. If
                                                  my course evaluations should prove me wrong, I'll let you know.


                                                  dd

                                                  Mark Goodacre wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > In addition to all those mentioned, I would want to stress (for the umpteenth time -
                                                  > - sorry everyone) the value of E. P. Sanders & Margaret Davies, _Studying the
                                                  > Synoptic Gospels_ because (a) it has the requisite introduction to source & form
                                                  > criticism etc. for which Brian asked. This is rare in books dealing with the
                                                  > historical Jesus -- lamentably so -- and (b) it has such a good discussion of the
                                                  > criteria for doing Jesus research, ideally pitched for the beginning student. I
                                                  > recommend this book for students on my own Jesus course.
                                                  >
                                                  > Also not mentioned so far is C. J. Den Heyer's _Jesus Matters_ (ET, London:
                                                  > SCM, 1996), again an ideal student introduction. If it helps, I have a brief on the
                                                  > web, reproduced from an article I wrote in RRT in 1997,
                                                  > http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre/revnt1.htm#den Heyer
                                                  >
                                                  > Mark
                                                  > --------------------------------------
                                                  > Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                                  > Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                                  > University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                                  > Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom
                                                  >
                                                  > http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                                  > The New Testament Gateway
                                                  > Mark Without Q
                                                  > Aseneth Home Page
                                                  >
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                                                • Mark Goodacre
                                                  ... Thanks for the interesting feedback. I begin a course on Jesus research after Christmas and am contemplating using Theissen & Merz a bit, so this is
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Dec 10, 1999
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                                                    On 9 Dec 99, at 14:12, Dennis C. Duling wrote:

                                                    > This past semester I tried Theissen on my undergraduates. Their first exam
                                                    > was horrible; their second exam was quite good. However, I have worked
                                                    > about as hard as I ever have on a course -- a lot of it explaining
                                                    > Theissen. The translation at points needs some improvement, too. So I
                                                    > would say that it is only for the bold and very ambitious, as far as an
                                                    > undergraduate text goes. I'll go back to a simpler text for my
                                                    > undergraduates. W. Barnes Tatum has a new edition of his little classic
                                                    > out, and I'll try it next time, along with one of the newer general books
                                                    > on Jesus, perhaps D. Allison or B. Ehrman on the apocalyptic-millennial
                                                    > side and s.t. from the Q-Thomas axis on the other side (Crossan), or
                                                    > perhaps (again) Borg. If my course evaluations should prove me wrong, I'll
                                                    > let you know.

                                                    Thanks for the interesting feedback. I begin a course on Jesus
                                                    research after Christmas and am contemplating using Theissen &
                                                    Merz a bit, so this is useful to know. But I'll use a variety of key texts,
                                                    Sanders, Sanders & Davies, den Heyer, Crossan, Fredriksen,
                                                    perhaps Powell as well as Theissen & Merz. For another recent
                                                    (fairly positive) review of Theissen & Merz, see the recent one in the
                                                    SBL Review of Biblical Literature by James Robinson:

                                                    http://www.bookreviews.org/Reviews/0800631234.html

                                                    Mark
                                                    --------------------------------------
                                                    Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                                    Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                                    University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                                    Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

                                                    http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                                    The New Testament Gateway
                                                    All-in-One Biblical Resources Search
                                                    Mark Without Q
                                                    Aseneth Home Page
                                                  • Dennis C. Duling
                                                    Many thanks. I reviewed it in Bible Review, though my review was considerably edited down by the editors. dd
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Dec 13, 1999
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                                                      Many thanks. I reviewed it in Bible Review, though my review was
                                                      considerably edited down by the editors.
                                                      dd

                                                      Mark Goodacre wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > On 9 Dec 99, at 14:12, Dennis C. Duling wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > This past semester I tried Theissen on my undergraduates. Their first exam
                                                      > > was horrible; their second exam was quite good. However, I have worked
                                                      > > about as hard as I ever have on a course -- a lot of it explaining
                                                      > > Theissen. The translation at points needs some improvement, too. So I
                                                      > > would say that it is only for the bold and very ambitious, as far as an
                                                      > > undergraduate text goes. I'll go back to a simpler text for my
                                                      > > undergraduates. W. Barnes Tatum has a new edition of his little classic
                                                      > > out, and I'll try it next time, along with one of the newer general books
                                                      > > on Jesus, perhaps D. Allison or B. Ehrman on the apocalyptic-millennial
                                                      > > side and s.t. from the Q-Thomas axis on the other side (Crossan), or
                                                      > > perhaps (again) Borg. If my course evaluations should prove me wrong, I'll
                                                      > > let you know.
                                                      >
                                                      > Thanks for the interesting feedback. I begin a course on Jesus
                                                      > research after Christmas and am contemplating using Theissen &
                                                      > Merz a bit, so this is useful to know. But I'll use a variety of key texts,
                                                      > Sanders, Sanders & Davies, den Heyer, Crossan, Fredriksen,
                                                      > perhaps Powell as well as Theissen & Merz. For another recent
                                                      > (fairly positive) review of Theissen & Merz, see the recent one in the
                                                      > SBL Review of Biblical Literature by James Robinson:
                                                      >
                                                      > http://www.bookreviews.org/Reviews/0800631234.html
                                                      >
                                                      > Mark
                                                      > --------------------------------------
                                                      > Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                                                      > Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                                                      > University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                                                      > Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom
                                                      >
                                                      > http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                                      > The New Testament Gateway
                                                      > All-in-One Biblical Resources Search
                                                      > Mark Without Q
                                                      > Aseneth Home Page
                                                      >
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