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[XTalk] Time

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  • James R. Covey
    their favorite cover boy is back... http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,35079,00.html ... James R. Covey WWW Systems Developer Cochran
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 3, 1999
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      their favorite cover boy is back...

      http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,35079,00.html

      -------------------------
      James R. Covey
      WWW Systems Developer
      Cochran Interactive Inc.
      http://www.cochran.com
      direct ph. # 902.422.8915
      office fax # 902.425.8659
      jrcovey@...
    • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
      In a message dated 1/22/2004 6:24:53 PM Central Standard Time, jefferyhodges@yahoo.com writes: Good point. I believe that you re correct -- water clocks lost
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 22, 2004
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        In a message dated 1/22/2004 6:24:53 PM Central Standard Time,
        jefferyhodges@... writes:

        Good point. I believe that you're correct -- water
        clocks lost water, drop by drop.

        Did the water drip into something?

        Jeffery Hodges

        The water dripped into a vessel which was marked; a given quantity of water
        in the receiving vessel marked a given passage of time.
        Ed Tyler

        http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        This would fit with the concept of time as filling a container until full. Now, does anybody know the answer to the original question? (What was that question,
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 22, 2004
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          This would fit with the concept of time as filling a
          container until full. Now, does anybody know the
          answer to the original question? (What was that
          question, again?)

          Jeffery Hodges

          LeeEdgarTyler@... wrote:
          >
          > The water dripped into a vessel which was marked; a
          > given quantity of water
          > in the receiving vessel marked a given passage of
          > time.
          > Ed Tyler

          =====
          Office:

          Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
          Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
          447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
          Yangsandong 411
          South Korea

          Home:

          Sun-Ae Hwang and Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Seo-Dong 125-2
          Shin-Dong-A, Apt. 102-709
          447-710 Kyunggido, Osan-City
          South Korea

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        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... I wonder if the idea is linked to the theodicy that is set out in 2 Maccabees where god waits until the Gentiles have stocked up the full measure of their
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 22, 2004
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            Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

            > This would fit with the concept of time as filling a
            > container until full. Now, does anybody know the
            > answer to the original question? (What was that
            > question, again?)

            I wonder if the idea is linked to the theodicy that is set out in 2
            Maccabees where god waits until the Gentiles have stocked up the full
            measure of their sins before punishing them, while he punishes his elect
            a bit at a time so that when his sovereignty is revealed they will have
            no suffering to endure?

            12] Now I urge those who read this book not to be depressed by such
            calamities, but to recognize that these
            punishments were designed not to destroy but to discipline our people.
            [13] In fact, not to let the impious alone for long, but to punish them
            immediately, is a sign of great kindness.
            [14] For in the case of the other nations the Lord waits patiently to
            punish them until they have reached the full measure
            of their sins; but he does not deal in this way with us,
            [15] in order that he may not take vengeance on us afterward when our
            sins have reached their height.
            [16] Therefore he never withdraws his mercy from us. Though he
            disciplines us with calamities, he does not forsake his
            own people.

            Jeffrey
            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...



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          • David C. Hindley
            Ed Tyler says, ... water in the receiving vessel marked a given passage of time.
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 22, 2004
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              Ed Tyler says,

              >>The water dripped into a vessel which was marked; a given quantity of
              water in the receiving vessel marked a given passage of time.<<

              I think this may not be correct. The rate by which water flows from the
              clepsydra decreases as the volume of water it contains decreases. This has
              to do with the pressure of the water at the point of the orifice caused by
              the water's own weight in the cylinder (think of a gradual loss of water
              pressure that occurs when the power gets cut off, preventing pumps from
              replenishing water towers as residents continue to use the water that is
              available).

              In Babylonian texts, Otto Neugebauer(*) notes that the volume of water
              poured into water clocks to approximate the relative length of day and night
              at the solstices (a ratio of 2:1) measured a time relationship that was in
              reality closer to 3:2.

              In short, measuring the water collected in a receptacle does not lead to a
              good measurement of time, unless there were markings that were spaced closer
              together at the bottom of the collection vessel with the distance between
              markings progressively lengthening as they moved up the inside of the vessel
              to the top. Graduated collection vessels may exist, but I am not aware of
              them being common (I seem to recall maybe one example coming to my
              attention, but cannot locate the source of the reference at the moment to be
              sure - I may be thinking of the markings on sundials).

              As a result, I'd think that time would rather be perceived as "flowing out"
              than filling up.

              Respectfully,

              Dave Hindley
              Cleveland, Ohio, USA

              * O. Neugebauer, "The Water Clock in Babylonian Astronomy," Isis v. 37, pts
              1 & 2 (107 & 108), 1947, pages 37-43 (reprinted in a collection of his own
              essays, _Astronomy and History_, Springer-Verlag, 1983, pages 239-245)
            • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/22/2004 10:56:16 PM Central Standard Time, dhindley@compuserve.com writes: Ed Tyler says, ... water in the receiving vessel marked a
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 23, 2004
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                In a message dated 1/22/2004 10:56:16 PM Central Standard Time,
                dhindley@... writes:

                Ed Tyler says,

                >>The water dripped into a vessel which was marked; a given quantity of
                water in the receiving vessel marked a given passage of time.<<

                I think this may not be correct. The rate by which water flows from the
                clepsydra decreases as the volume of water it contains decreases. This has
                to do with the pressure of the water at the point of the orifice caused by
                the water's own weight in the cylinder (think of a gradual loss of water
                pressure that occurs when the power gets cut off, preventing pumps from
                replenishing water towers as residents continue to use the water that is
                available).

                In Babylonian texts, Otto Neugebauer(*) notes that the volume of water
                poured into water clocks to approximate the relative length of day and night
                at the solstices (a ratio of 2:1) measured a time relationship that was in
                reality closer to 3:2.

                In short, measuring the water collected in a receptacle does not lead to a
                good measurement of time, unless there were markings that were spaced closer
                tgether at the bottom of the collection vessel with the distance between
                markings progressively lengthening as they moved up the inside of the vessel
                to the top. Graduated collection vessels may exist, but I am not aware of
                them being common (I seem to recall maybe one example coming to my
                attention, but cannot locate the source of the reference at the moment to be
                sure - I may be thinking of the markings on sundials).

                As a result, I'd think that time would rather be perceived as "flowing out"
                than filling up.

                Respectfully,

                Dave Hindley
                Cleveland, Ohio, USA

                Hi, Dave,
                Water clocks were not common in the first place, apparently; but to answer
                this question I turned to a prominent and infallible authority--my wife, who's
                an archaeologist and who teaches classical studies at LSU. (In fact, she's
                doing the Greek Archaeology class this semester and Roman in the fall.)
                It's quite an easy task to calibrate the markings in the receiving vessel to
                account for the reduction in volume as the flow progresses, and the photos of
                the few remaining specimens she showed me reflect this. As has been
                mentioned in another post, these things were normally used to limit the duration of
                an event like a speech, or to time a process. They were not as far as I
                know normally used for telling the time of day, which would be left to a sundial
                or just to guesstimation by looking at the sun.
                The graduation is the markings would have to shorten, not lengthen, in order
                to compensate for the lessening of the flow.
                IIRC there were some very complex water clocks driven by gears and levers in
                Asia and parts East. I've not seen anything like those in the Greco-Roman
                examples I've seen.
                best,
                Ed Tyler

                http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David C. Hindley
                Hey Ed, ... archaeologist and who teaches classical studies at LSU. (In fact, she s doing the Greek Archaeology class this semester and Roman in the fall.)
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 23, 2004
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                  Hey Ed,

                  >>I turned to a prominent and infallible authority--my wife, who's an
                  archaeologist and who teaches classical studies at LSU. (In fact, she's
                  doing the Greek Archaeology class this semester and Roman in the fall.)
                  It's quite an easy task to calibrate the markings in the receiving vessel to
                  account for the reduction in volume as the flow progresses, and the photos
                  of the few remaining specimens she showed me reflect this.<<

                  So I may have been correct after all when I thought I had heard that
                  specimens survive that included graduated markings. Well, at least some of
                  my long term memory still works at age 48 <and I was beginning to wonder>

                  >>The graduation is the markings would have to shorten, not lengthen, in
                  order to compensate for the lessening of the flow.<<

                  I stand corrected. So much, though, for my ability to think things through
                  on the fly ... <g>

                  Respectfully,

                  Dave Hindley
                  Cleveland, Ohio, USA
                • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/23/2004 8:16:08 AM Central Standard Time, dhindley@compuserve.com writes: Hey Ed, ... archaeologist and who teaches classical studies at
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 23, 2004
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                    In a message dated 1/23/2004 8:16:08 AM Central Standard Time,
                    dhindley@... writes:

                    Hey Ed,

                    >>I turned to a prominent and infallible authority--my wife, who's an
                    archaeologist and who teaches classical studies at LSU. (In fact, she's
                    doing the Greek Archaeology class this semester and Roman in the fall.)
                    It's quite an easy task to calibrate the markings in the receiving vessel to
                    account for the reduction in volume as the flow progresses, and the photos
                    of the few remaining specimens she showed me reflect this.<<

                    So I may have been correct after all when I thought I had heard that
                    specimens survive that included graduated markings. Well, at least some of
                    my long term memory still works at age 48 <and I was beginning to wonder>

                    >>The graduation is the markings would have to shorten, not lengthen, in
                    order to compensate for the lessening of the flow.<<

                    I stand corrected. So much, though, for my ability to think things through
                    on the fly ... <g>

                    Respectfully,

                    Dave Hindley
                    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
                    Hi, Dave,
                    Or to think things through before the second cup of Joe in the morning if
                    you're like me. I couldn't tell "in" from "is" this morning, as the above
                    proves.
                    I don't know if including illustrations in messages fits list protocol, but
                    here goes anyway. I came up with an illustration of a Greek water clock
                    based upon a reconstruction of its shards. According to Johanna, (Joey, my wife)
                    the dearth of surviving clocks can be accounted for by three factors working
                    together: Their scarcity in the first place (there was not too great a need
                    for them); the fragility of the pots; and the fact that they could be used
                    as water vessels, which means they were often disassembled put to more
                    practical use. Here:
                    This illustration doesn't show it very well, but the bottom vessel has a
                    spout on the bottom just like the top one's. This spout would be corked and
                    when the water had run its course the position of the vessels would be reversed;
                    then the now-empty bottom vessel would be corked and the process started
                    again. The example above was presumably used to time speeches in legal
                    proceedings.
                    best,
                    Ed Tyler

                    http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
                    In a message dated 1/23/2004 10:27:21 AM Central Standard Time, LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com writes: This illustration doesn t show it very well, but the bottom
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 23, 2004
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                      In a message dated 1/23/2004 10:27:21 AM Central Standard Time,
                      LeeEdgarTyler@... writes:

                      This illustration doesn't show it very well, but the bottom vessel has a
                      spout on the bottom just like the top one's. This spout would be corked
                      and
                      when the water had run its course the position of the vessels would be
                      reversed;
                      then the now-empty bottom vessel would be corked and the process started
                      again. The example above was presumably used to time speeches in legal
                      proceedings.
                      best,
                      Ed Tyler

                      Obviously the system stripped out the illustration. Sorry about that: It
                      merely shows two identical vessels, each with a spout on its bottom, with one
                      vessel elevated and water flowing from the upper to the lower.
                      I should have just described it in the first place!
                      et
                      Ed Tyler

                      http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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