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[XTalk] Re: Was Jesus' father dead?

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... Remember, Bob, that I am drawing an association between the prodigal son parable and the leave/forsake/set aside/ hate your father, mother, brothers, etc.
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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      Robert M Schacht wrote:

      > Jack,
      > Both you and Brian seem to be assuming that the 'father' in this
      > allegory(?) would be Jesus' human father, Joseph. But don't forget also
      > that Jesus is frequently attested as referring to God as his "father".
      > Along this line of thinking, your subject line is a red herring.

      Remember, Bob, that I am drawing an association between the prodigal
      son parable and the leave/forsake/set aside/"hate" your father, mother,
      brothers, etc. In those pericopes, Jesus is talking about a father
      as part of a family.

      True, the HJ seems to have made a big thing of God as "Abba,"
      significantly noticed that even Paul picks it up years later.
      The HJ was the master of the parable..sort of "mini-aggadic midrashes"
      whose fictional accounts related some scriptural or moral truth.

      It is perfectly natural for a composer of fiction (or a parable) to
      draw on real life experience for an exemplar fashioned into an
      allegory...even if biological dad becomes divine dad to form the
      metaphor.

      >
      > The temptation narrative might be autobiographical in a related sense,
      > too, with the answers given in it by Jesus his "final" answers, rather
      > than his first answers, and his baptism representing his repentance (was
      > not J the B's baptism a baptism of repentance? ), and the vox Dei the
      > response of the "Father" in the Prodigal Son?
      >
      > However intriguing this may be, Brian is right that; I don't see any way
      > to rescue this from the domain of speculation. Your Aramaic datum adds an
      > ounce of versimilitude, when pounds are needed.

      Oh..I agree with you here...but isn't it true that ounces is all
      we get? HJ research is based on running with what you have as long
      as there is at least *some* modicum of a datum to fly with. Its
      no secret that Aramaisms form the primary basis in my own critical
      historical method for the NT. Where Dorothy had to follow the
      yellow brick road to find the wizard, I follow the Aramaic to find
      the HJ. Now Bob, I know all the pitfalls in this before you lay
      them all out for me (grin) but I am of the opinion that it is a
      tool largely under-used for its usefulness, so if I push a little
      hard on it it is by way of compensation.

      Jack
      --
      ______________________________________________

      taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

      Jack Kilmon
      jkilmon@...

      http://www.historian.net
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... There are various types of Aramaisms, one of which is a mistranslation of an Aramaic idiom. This is clear to me in the Markan (10:29) and Matthean (19:29)
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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        Nathan McGovern wrote:
        >
        > Jack Kilmon wrote:
        >
        > >I never thought of that one but I might entertain brother Jake as
        > >the prodigal and Jesus as older bro. After all, Ya'akov does appear
        > >to just "show up on the doorstep," doesn't he? :)
        >
        > Since you are wisely following the Aramaic to find the HJ, I wonder if
        > Luke's parable of the prodigal son shows any signs of an Aramaic basis, as
        > does the saying on leaving one's family and taking up the cross.

        There are various types of Aramaisms, one of which is a mistranslation
        of an Aramaic idiom. This is clear to me in the Markan (10:29) and
        Matthean (19:29) versions that preserve the "set aside" meaning of
        <Aram>snh rather than the Lukan and GOT versions which use the "hate"
        meaning of the word in the Greek MISEI. Mark and Matthew use Greek
        AFHKEN. Both Greek words distill to the one Aramaic word SANEH in
        translation.

        As for the parable of the prodigal son..verse 17, EIS EAUTON DE ELQWN
        is an Aramaic phrase of repentance <Aram>wkd )t) lwt nf$h (see
        Billerbeck,
        Kommentar zum NT aus Talmud und Midrasch I-VI, 1922- 61) and verse
        18 ANASTAS POREUSOMAI is found in Aramaic )qwm w)zl can be found in
        Targum to II Sam 3:21. The Parable is rife with Semitisms and is,
        I believe, from "special L" semitic source.

        I agree with Jeremias that this Parable is not an allegory but is
        drawn from life, hence my "follow the Aramaic" leaves me wondering
        if Mark 10:29 and Matthew 19:29 are not also possible glimpses
        at the HJ.

        Jack
        --
        ______________________________________________

        taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

        Jack Kilmon
        jkilmon@...

        http://www.historian.net
      • Nathan McGovern
        ... Since you are wisely following the Aramaic to find the HJ, I wonder if Luke s parable of the prodigal son shows any signs of an Aramaic basis, as does the
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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          Jack Kilmon wrote:

          >I never thought of that one but I might entertain brother Jake as
          >the prodigal and Jesus as older bro. After all, Ya'akov does appear
          >to just "show up on the doorstep," doesn't he? :)

          Since you are wisely following the Aramaic to find the HJ, I wonder if
          Luke's parable of the prodigal son shows any signs of an Aramaic basis, as
          does the saying on leaving one's family and taking up the cross.

          Shalom,

          Nathan

          Nathan McGovern
          Franklin and Marshall College
          nm_mcgovern@...
        • Brian Waddington
          ... Actually it helps, a lot! Yours is the paper I read (web version). Apologies for unintentionally misrepresenting your argument. To paraphrase a certain
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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            >
            > Dunno whether this helps but in 1996 I proposed that the Prodigal was
            > based on autobiographical reflection on sibling rivalry between HJ & his
            > brother Ya'akov ha Zedek in my JS paper "Israel's Prodigal Son:
            > Reflections on Reimaging Jesus" published in FORUM n.s. 1,2 (Fall 1998)
            > pp. 431-466. The penultimate prepublication draft is still on line at
            >
            > http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/prodigal.html
            >
            > In that paper I also argued that the stylized imagery of the prodigal
            > plot makes better sense out of HJ's baptism & gospel passages relating
            > him to JB than does any of the synoptic narratives. But I never
            > suggested a strict allegorical equation of prodigal=HJ & older
            > brother=JB. If anyone else has had such a heretical brainstorm, I have
            > yet to come across it.
            >
            > Shalom!
            >
            > Mahlon

            Actually it helps, a lot! Yours is the paper I read (web version).
            Apologies for unintentionally misrepresenting your argument. To
            paraphrase a certain teacher.... I shall have to do more and better
            homework.
            Brian
            retired (and forgetful) pastor
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