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[XTalk] Re: Was Jesus' father dead?

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... I never thought of that one but I might entertain brother Jake as the prodigal and Jesus as older bro. After all, Ya akov does appear to just show up on
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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      "Mahlon H. Smith" wrote:
      >
      > Jack Kilmon wrote:
      > >
      > > I am wondering if these pericopes may be somewhat autobiographical.
      > >
      > > Having posed the question, I am wondering if the parable of the "Prodigal Son"
      > > may also call on the HJ's personal experience.
      > >
      > > Any comments?
      >
      > Brian Waddington replied:
      > >
      > >
      > > Jack, a year or so ago I read a paper putting forth the idea that the
      > > 'Prodigal Son' story was indeed auto-biographical. Due to a bad memory
      > > and an even worse filing system I cannot presently put my hands on the
      > > article. Because of my particular "THEOLOGICAL" bend I found the paper
      > > both thought provoking and defensible.
      > >
      > > In a very small nutshell; Jesus was the prodigal son, John the Baptist
      > > was the elder son. Tie in the baptism of Jesus by John and you get a
      > > rather interesting understanding of the personal dynamics going on in
      > > the early life of Jesus and his movement.
      >
      > Dunno whether this helps but in 1996 I proposed that the Prodigal was
      > based on autobiographical reflection on sibling rivalry between HJ & his
      > brother Ya'akov ha Zedek in my JS paper "Israel's Prodigal Son:
      > Reflections on Reimaging Jesus" published in FORUM n.s. 1,2 (Fall 1998)
      > pp. 431-466. The penultimate prepublication draft is still on line at
      >
      > http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/prodigal.html
      >
      > In that paper I also argued that the stylized imagery of the prodigal
      > plot makes better sense out of HJ's baptism & gospel passages relating
      > him to JB than does any of the synoptic narratives. But I never
      > suggested a strict allegorical equation of prodigal=HJ & older
      > brother=JB. If anyone else has had such a heretical brainstorm, I have
      > yet to come across it.

      I never thought of that one but I might entertain brother Jake as
      the prodigal and Jesus as older bro. After all, Ya'akov does appear
      to just "show up on the doorstep," doesn't he? :)

      Jack

      --
      ______________________________________________

      taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

      Jack Kilmon
      jkilmon@...

      http://www.historian.net
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... Remember, Bob, that I am drawing an association between the prodigal son parable and the leave/forsake/set aside/ hate your father, mother, brothers, etc.
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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        Robert M Schacht wrote:

        > Jack,
        > Both you and Brian seem to be assuming that the 'father' in this
        > allegory(?) would be Jesus' human father, Joseph. But don't forget also
        > that Jesus is frequently attested as referring to God as his "father".
        > Along this line of thinking, your subject line is a red herring.

        Remember, Bob, that I am drawing an association between the prodigal
        son parable and the leave/forsake/set aside/"hate" your father, mother,
        brothers, etc. In those pericopes, Jesus is talking about a father
        as part of a family.

        True, the HJ seems to have made a big thing of God as "Abba,"
        significantly noticed that even Paul picks it up years later.
        The HJ was the master of the parable..sort of "mini-aggadic midrashes"
        whose fictional accounts related some scriptural or moral truth.

        It is perfectly natural for a composer of fiction (or a parable) to
        draw on real life experience for an exemplar fashioned into an
        allegory...even if biological dad becomes divine dad to form the
        metaphor.

        >
        > The temptation narrative might be autobiographical in a related sense,
        > too, with the answers given in it by Jesus his "final" answers, rather
        > than his first answers, and his baptism representing his repentance (was
        > not J the B's baptism a baptism of repentance? ), and the vox Dei the
        > response of the "Father" in the Prodigal Son?
        >
        > However intriguing this may be, Brian is right that; I don't see any way
        > to rescue this from the domain of speculation. Your Aramaic datum adds an
        > ounce of versimilitude, when pounds are needed.

        Oh..I agree with you here...but isn't it true that ounces is all
        we get? HJ research is based on running with what you have as long
        as there is at least *some* modicum of a datum to fly with. Its
        no secret that Aramaisms form the primary basis in my own critical
        historical method for the NT. Where Dorothy had to follow the
        yellow brick road to find the wizard, I follow the Aramaic to find
        the HJ. Now Bob, I know all the pitfalls in this before you lay
        them all out for me (grin) but I am of the opinion that it is a
        tool largely under-used for its usefulness, so if I push a little
        hard on it it is by way of compensation.

        Jack
        --
        ______________________________________________

        taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

        Jack Kilmon
        jkilmon@...

        http://www.historian.net
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... There are various types of Aramaisms, one of which is a mistranslation of an Aramaic idiom. This is clear to me in the Markan (10:29) and Matthean (19:29)
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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          Nathan McGovern wrote:
          >
          > Jack Kilmon wrote:
          >
          > >I never thought of that one but I might entertain brother Jake as
          > >the prodigal and Jesus as older bro. After all, Ya'akov does appear
          > >to just "show up on the doorstep," doesn't he? :)
          >
          > Since you are wisely following the Aramaic to find the HJ, I wonder if
          > Luke's parable of the prodigal son shows any signs of an Aramaic basis, as
          > does the saying on leaving one's family and taking up the cross.

          There are various types of Aramaisms, one of which is a mistranslation
          of an Aramaic idiom. This is clear to me in the Markan (10:29) and
          Matthean (19:29) versions that preserve the "set aside" meaning of
          <Aram>snh rather than the Lukan and GOT versions which use the "hate"
          meaning of the word in the Greek MISEI. Mark and Matthew use Greek
          AFHKEN. Both Greek words distill to the one Aramaic word SANEH in
          translation.

          As for the parable of the prodigal son..verse 17, EIS EAUTON DE ELQWN
          is an Aramaic phrase of repentance <Aram>wkd )t) lwt nf$h (see
          Billerbeck,
          Kommentar zum NT aus Talmud und Midrasch I-VI, 1922- 61) and verse
          18 ANASTAS POREUSOMAI is found in Aramaic )qwm w)zl can be found in
          Targum to II Sam 3:21. The Parable is rife with Semitisms and is,
          I believe, from "special L" semitic source.

          I agree with Jeremias that this Parable is not an allegory but is
          drawn from life, hence my "follow the Aramaic" leaves me wondering
          if Mark 10:29 and Matthew 19:29 are not also possible glimpses
          at the HJ.

          Jack
          --
          ______________________________________________

          taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

          Jack Kilmon
          jkilmon@...

          http://www.historian.net
        • Nathan McGovern
          ... Since you are wisely following the Aramaic to find the HJ, I wonder if Luke s parable of the prodigal son shows any signs of an Aramaic basis, as does the
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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            Jack Kilmon wrote:

            >I never thought of that one but I might entertain brother Jake as
            >the prodigal and Jesus as older bro. After all, Ya'akov does appear
            >to just "show up on the doorstep," doesn't he? :)

            Since you are wisely following the Aramaic to find the HJ, I wonder if
            Luke's parable of the prodigal son shows any signs of an Aramaic basis, as
            does the saying on leaving one's family and taking up the cross.

            Shalom,

            Nathan

            Nathan McGovern
            Franklin and Marshall College
            nm_mcgovern@...
          • Brian Waddington
            ... Actually it helps, a lot! Yours is the paper I read (web version). Apologies for unintentionally misrepresenting your argument. To paraphrase a certain
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 26, 1999
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              >
              > Dunno whether this helps but in 1996 I proposed that the Prodigal was
              > based on autobiographical reflection on sibling rivalry between HJ & his
              > brother Ya'akov ha Zedek in my JS paper "Israel's Prodigal Son:
              > Reflections on Reimaging Jesus" published in FORUM n.s. 1,2 (Fall 1998)
              > pp. 431-466. The penultimate prepublication draft is still on line at
              >
              > http://religion.rutgers.edu/nt/prodigal.html
              >
              > In that paper I also argued that the stylized imagery of the prodigal
              > plot makes better sense out of HJ's baptism & gospel passages relating
              > him to JB than does any of the synoptic narratives. But I never
              > suggested a strict allegorical equation of prodigal=HJ & older
              > brother=JB. If anyone else has had such a heretical brainstorm, I have
              > yet to come across it.
              >
              > Shalom!
              >
              > Mahlon

              Actually it helps, a lot! Yours is the paper I read (web version).
              Apologies for unintentionally misrepresenting your argument. To
              paraphrase a certain teacher.... I shall have to do more and better
              homework.
              Brian
              retired (and forgetful) pastor
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