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1 Corinthians 13

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  • John E Staton
    I believe both Ron and Bruce to be in error here. They are following a popular interpretation of the passage which views it as a discourse on love as a general
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 25, 2014
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      I believe both Ron and Bruce to be in error here. They are following a popular interpretation of the passage which views it as a discourse on love as a general principle, and sometimes we hear the view expressed that it is an independent hymn. It is not. Verses 1-3 refer back to chapter 12 (tongues and prophecy v.10, faith v.9). Chapter 13 is an indispensable part of Paul's argument in chapters 12-14, which is that if everything is done in a spirit of Christian love, everybody's gifts will be valued, nobody will think too highly of themselves, and everybody will consider the needs of others in worship. Chapter 14 then works out how that principle would work in practice.

      As for the old argument about Paul and James, I wonder how long it will be before that argument is as discredited as the one that suggested Paul was the founder of Christianity whereas Jesus was just a harmless teacher of eternal truths. Bigging up differences between Paul and James (they exist, but they are exaggerated) may be theologically and philosophically convenient in the 21st century, but it has zero basis in historical evidence.

      Best Wishes

      JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)

      Scarborough, North Yorkshire, UK

      www.christianreflection.org.uk

      Sent from my iPad
    • Ronald Price
      ... John, It would have required a clumsiness uncharacteristic of Paul to point out that prophecies and (speaking in) tongues will come to an end (13:8), and
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 25, 2014
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        Re: [XTalk] 1 Corinthians 13 John Staton wrote:

        Chapter 13 is an indispensable part of Paul's argument in chapters 12-14 ...

        John,

        It would have required a clumsiness uncharacteristic of Paul to point out that prophecies and (speaking in) tongues will come to an end (13:8), and then a few lines later extol the virtues of prophecy as against speaking in tongues (14:1b-5).

        In any case, Paul did boast, and to him faith must surely have been more important than love. Take his most important letter: Romans. The noun 'faith' is mentioned at least 37 times, while the noun 'love' is mentioned nine times, and the subject of three of these is God or Christ. So according to Paul, it is much more important for a person to have faith than to have love, and this is (probably deliberately) contradicted by the author of 1 Cor 13:13.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Would faith continue to play a role after the eschaton, or would Paul think that faith has played out its role by then? Love, on the other hand, would surely
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 25, 2014
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          Would faith continue to play a role after the eschaton, or would Paul think that faith has played out its role by then? Love, on the other hand, would surely continue.

          I don't know that the hymn to love is Pauline, I simply wonder about one of the assumptions in your argument.

          Jeffery Hodges

          Ewha Womans University
          Seoul, South Korea


          Novella: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E18KW0K
           (The Bottomless Bottle of Beer)


          Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bottomless-Bottle-of-Beer/204064649770035 (The Bottomless Bottle of Beer)



          Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts"


          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University


          Home Address:


          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
          Sangbong-dong 1
          Jungnang-gu
          Seoul 131-771
          South Korea


          On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Ronald Price <ron-price@...> wrote:
           

          John Staton wrote:

          Chapter 13 is an indispensable part of Paul's argument in chapters 12-14 ...

          John,

          It would have required a clumsiness uncharacteristic of Paul to point out that prophecies and (speaking in) tongues will come to an end (13:8), and then a few lines later extol the virtues of prophecy as against speaking in tongues (14:1b-5).

          In any case, Paul did boast, and to him faith must surely have been more important than love. Take his most important letter: Romans. The noun 'faith' is mentioned at least 37 times, while the noun 'love' is mentioned nine times, and the subject of three of these is God or Christ. So according to Paul, it is much more important for a person to have faith than to have love, and this is (probably deliberately) contradicted by the author of 1 Cor 13:13.

          Ron Price,

          Derbyshire, UK

          http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


        • Ronald Price
          ... Jeffery, That s an interesting idea. However I don t know the answer to your question. All I know is that whoever wrote 1 Cor 13:13 thought faith, hope and
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 26, 2014
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            Re: [XTalk] 1 Corinthians 13 Jeffery Hodges wrote:

            Would faith continue to play a role after the eschaton, or would Paul think that faith has played out its role by then? Love, on the other hand, would surely continue.

            Jeffery,

            That's an interesting idea.

            However I don't know the answer to your question. All I know is that whoever wrote 1 Cor 13:13 thought faith, hope and love would all last for ever.

            Ron Price,

            Derbyshire, UK

            http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
          • John E Staton
            Ron wrote, It would have required a clumsiness uncharacteristic of Paul to point out that prophecies and (speaking in) tongues will come to an end (13:8), and
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 26, 2014
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              Ron wrote, "It would have required a clumsiness uncharacteristic of Paul to point out
              that prophecies and (speaking in) tongues will come to an end (13:8), and
              then a few lines later extol the virtues of prophecy as against speaking in
              tongues (14:1b-5)."

              Not so, Ron. 13:8 refers to a time after the eschaton, 14: 1-5 is firmly in the here and now. Paul's argument in 1 Cor. 12-14 is that all things should be done in a spirit of love. I suspect Paul May be saying faith which does not result in love is not true faith.

              Best Wishes

              JOHN E STATON (BA Sheffield; DipTheol. Bristol)

              Scarborough, North Yorkshire, UK

              www.christianreflection.org.uk

              Sent from my iPad
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Thanks, Ron. I should always check the actual text before I comment. Jeffery Ewha Womans University Seoul, South Korea Novella:
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 26, 2014
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                Thanks, Ron. I should always check the actual text before I comment.

                Jeffery

                Ewha Womans University
                Seoul, South Korea


                Novella: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E18KW0K
                 (The Bottomless Bottle of Beer)


                Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Bottomless-Bottle-of-Beer/204064649770035 (The Bottomless Bottle of Beer)



                Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts"


                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University


                Home Address:


                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                Sangbong-dong 1
                Jungnang-gu
                Seoul 131-771
                South Korea


                On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Ronald Price <ron-price@...> wrote:
                 

                Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                Would faith continue to play a role after the eschaton, or would Paul think that faith has played out its role by then? Love, on the other hand, would surely continue.

                Jeffery,

                That's an interesting idea.

                However I don't know the answer to your question. All I know is that whoever wrote 1 Cor 13:13 thought faith, hope and love would all last for ever.


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