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Re: [XTalk] Draft of Lord's/Disciple's Prayer Book

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  • Gordon Raynal
    Thanks for the reply. Here s a brief response: ... You re welcome! I hope it gets a lot of use. ... Right, I guess I pushed off to my own conclusion about
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 17, 2013
      Thanks for the reply. Here's a brief response:

      On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:38 AM, Jgibson wrote:

      > On 4/17/2013 7:23 AM, Gordon Raynal wrote:
      >> Good Morning Jeffrey,
      >> Thanks for posting your work and this invitation. I've read the
      >> opening chapter this morning and I have 4 comments:
      >> 1. I very much like your gathering of the many versions of the
      >> prayer
      >> in one place. Most helpful and this will make it a good teaching
      >> tool.
      > Thanks!

      You're welcome! I hope it gets a lot of use.
      >> 2. I agree with you that this is most probably a creation of the
      >> earliest members of "the Way" (to borrow that descriptive term from
      >> Acts).
      > Is that what I said?

      Right, I guess I pushed off to my own conclusion about its earliness.
      >> As you note, calling YHWH Elohim "Father," is rooted in a
      >> number of resources in the Hebrew scriptures. And, of course, asking
      >> for bread, for forgiveness, for aid with temptations is similarly
      >> rooted.
      > But what exactly is being asked for in these requests.

      Let me read on and I'll reply then.
      >> With Hal Taussig, I can imagine that Jesus might well have
      >> used some of these phrases aphoristically, or that some of these
      >> phrases were rooted in Jesus' aphorisms and parables, and I wonder if
      >> his own language might have been part of the background of creating
      >> the prayer(s), but whether that is the case or not, it is a
      >> thoroughly
      >> Hebraic/ Jewish prayer with the aforementioned deep roots.
      > Something I deal with in Chapter 3. But it's also rooted in Jesus'
      > conception of how God wants his faithful to be his people.
      >> 3. Not to rehash the Q/ no Q debates, but I will note that this
      >> prayer is a part of the Q sermon in the earliest layer according to
      >> Kloppenborg, Mack and others. Here, all I'll say is that I think it
      >> is very early and could have been created when Jesus was still alive.
      > I don't deal with hypothetical texts, just the ones that we have.

      And per my note to the other group, I'm fine with that for this
      discussion. But again the earliness of this formulation is the
      >> 4. If pressed for a new name, I'd choose "Apostles' Prayer," and not
      >> "Disciples Prayer." Why? The foundational mission agenda is a
      >> mission of envoys/ sent ones (apostles) (Q/ Luke 10:1ff). This
      >> naming
      >> business gets us to the issue of how this group formed and what
      >> exactly was Jesus' role in the original group/ groups? Did Jesus
      >> found a group? Or was Jesus a part of a group with specific
      >> offerings/ gifts that eventually led him to be acclaimed as the
      >> "lord/
      >> master/ rabbi," and embodiment of the group? That's a different
      >> discussion, but if this prayer/ these prayers are either the
      >> composition(s) of another while Jesus was alive or in the years after
      >> his execution, then what word/ title best describes them? As Paul,
      >> for example, uses the "Abba" line in Galatians and Romans, I think
      >> the
      >> best descriptive is: "Apostle."
      > Interesting points. And just who the disciples are in Jesus eyes and
      > what his intentions were in calling and gathering them is a question I
      > take up in the 4th chapter.

      Again, I look forward to getting there.

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