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Draft of Lord's/Disciple's Prayer Book

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  • Jgibson
    I ve been working for the last few weeks on completing a book on the Lord s/Disciples Prayer that might be published in the Moorehouse Press Conversations
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 16 2:49 PM
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      I've been working for the last few weeks on completing a book on the
      Lord's/Disciples' Prayer that might be published in the Moorehouse Press
      "Conversations with Scripture" series.

      I'd very much like to have comments and criticisms on what I've so far
      managed to cobble together if you have any inclination to do so.

      You'll find a pdf draft of it - under the title of "Book revision 3.pdf"
      in the files section of my JBGibsonWritings Yahoo Group (you'll have
      to join to access the file).

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/


      To give you a taste of where I'm going, here's the Introduction to the
      book.


      > Introduction
      >
      > One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he
      > finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to
      > pray, just as John taught his disciples." (Lk. 11:1 NRSV)
      >
      >
      > Every day Christians all over the world, taking the text of Luke
      > 11:1 as their cue, ‘dare’ and “make bold” both privately and
      > publically to utter the words which Jesus gave his disciples when
      > they asked him to teach them to pray. But do Christians actually
      > understand the words they utter? More importantly, granting that
      > they have some understanding of these words (as surely they must,
      > especially if they have read studies of the Prayer or, as is
      > likely, have been instructed by pastors and teachers on what the
      > words mean), is this understanding in any way consonant with what
      > Jesus himself understood the meaning and aim of his words to be?
      > To put this another way: When we pray the prayer Jesus taught “us”
      > to pray, are we really praying it as Jesus intended “us” to pray
      > it. Is what we ask for when we petition God to let his name “be
      > hallowed” and his Kingdom “come” and for bread and forgiveness and
      > not being led into “temptation” really what Jesus thought and
      > meant those who recited his words about God’s name, God’s
      > Kingdom, “our” bread, forgiveness and “temptation” to be asking
      > for? I strongly believe, quite contrary to what is most often
      > thought in this regard, even by important scholars of Jesus’s
      > Prayer, that the answer to this question is no. And in the
      > following pages I take up the task of showing through an extended
      > “conversation” with the bit of scripture traditionally known as
      > “The Lord’s Prayer” that this is so.



      As ever,

      Jeffrey


      --
      ---
      Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd
      Chicago, IL
      jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gordon Raynal
      Good Morning Jeffrey, Thanks for posting your work and this invitation. I ve read the opening chapter this morning and I have 4 comments: 1. I very much like
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 17 5:23 AM
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        Good Morning Jeffrey,

        Thanks for posting your work and this invitation. I've read the
        opening chapter this morning and I have 4 comments:

        1. I very much like your gathering of the many versions of the prayer
        in one place. Most helpful and this will make it a good teaching tool.

        2. I agree with you that this is most probably a creation of the
        earliest members of "the Way" (to borrow that descriptive term from
        Acts). As you note, calling YHWH Elohim "Father," is rooted in a
        number of resources in the Hebrew scriptures. And, of course, asking
        for bread, for forgiveness, for aid with temptations is similarly
        rooted. With Hal Taussig, I can imagine that Jesus might well have
        used some of these phrases aphoristically, or that some of these
        phrases were rooted in Jesus' aphorisms and parables, and I wonder if
        his own language might have been part of the background of creating
        the prayer(s), but whether that is the case or not, it is a thoroughly
        Hebraic/ Jewish prayer with the aforementioned deep roots.

        3. Not to rehash the Q/ no Q debates, but I will note that this
        prayer is a part of the Q sermon in the earliest layer according to
        Kloppenborg, Mack and others. Here, all I'll say is that I think it
        is very early and could have been created when Jesus was still alive.

        4. If pressed for a new name, I'd choose "Apostles' Prayer," and not
        "Disciples Prayer." Why? The foundational mission agenda is a
        mission of envoys/ sent ones (apostles) (Q/ Luke 10:1ff). This naming
        business gets us to the issue of how this group formed and what
        exactly was Jesus' role in the original group/ groups? Did Jesus
        found a group? Or was Jesus a part of a group with specific
        offerings/ gifts that eventually led him to be acclaimed as the "lord/
        master/ rabbi," and embodiment of the group? That's a different
        discussion, but if this prayer/ these prayers are either the
        composition(s) of another while Jesus was alive or in the years after
        his execution, then what word/ title best describes them? As Paul,
        for example, uses the "Abba" line in Galatians and Romans, I think the
        best descriptive is: "Apostle."

        If this reply is hasty and you cover some of this in later chapters, I
        apologize for my haste. But again, I'm very impressed and wanted to
        send you a thank you and a brief discussion of my response to your
        first chapter.

        Gordon Raynal
        Inman, SC

        On Apr 16, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Jgibson wrote:

        >
        > I've been working for the last few weeks on completing a book on the
        > Lord's/Disciples' Prayer that might be published in the Moorehouse
        > Press
        > "Conversations with Scripture" series.
        >
        > I'd very much like to have comments and criticisms on what I've so far
        > managed to cobble together if you have any inclination to do so.
        >
        > You'll find a pdf draft of it - under the title of "Book revision
        > 3.pdf"
        > in the files section of my JBGibsonWritings Yahoo Group (you'll
        > have
        > to join to access the file).
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/
        >
        >
        > To give you a taste of where I'm going, here's the Introduction to
        > the
        > book.
        >
        >
        >> Introduction
        >>
        >> One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he
        >> finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to
        >> pray, just as John taught his disciples." (Lk. 11:1 NRSV)
        >>
        >>
        >> Every day Christians all over the world, taking the text of Luke
        >> 11:1 as their cue, ‘dare’ and “make bold” both privately and
        >> publically to utter the words which Jesus gave his disciples when
        >> they asked him to teach them to pray. But do Christians actually
        >> understand the words they utter? More importantly, granting that
        >> they have some understanding of these words (as surely they must,
        >> especially if they have read studies of the Prayer or, as is
        >> likely, have been instructed by pastors and teachers on what the
        >> words mean), is this understanding in any way consonant with what
        >> Jesus himself understood the meaning and aim of his words to be?
        >> To put this another way: When we pray the prayer Jesus taught “us”
        >> to pray, are we really praying it as Jesus intended “us” to pray
        >> it. Is what we ask for when we petition God to let his name “be
        >> hallowed” and his Kingdom “come” and for bread and forgiveness and
        >> not being led into “temptation” really what Jesus thought and
        >> meant those who recited his words about God’s name, God’s
        >> Kingdom, “our” bread, forgiveness and “temptation” to be asking
        >> for? I strongly believe, quite contrary to what is most often
        >> thought in this regard, even by important scholars of Jesus’s
        >> Prayer, that the answer to this question is no. And in the
        >> following pages I take up the task of showing through an extended
        >> “conversation” with the bit of scripture traditionally known as
        >> “The Lord’s Prayer” that this is so.
        >
        >
        >
        > As ever,
        >
        > Jeffrey
        >
        >
        > --
        > ---
        > Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd
        > Chicago, IL
        > jgibson000@...
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
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      • Jgibson
        ... Thanks! ... Is that what I said? ... But what exactly is being asked for in these requests. ... Something I deal with in Chapter 3. But it s also rooted
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 17 6:38 AM
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          On 4/17/2013 7:23 AM, Gordon Raynal wrote:
          > Good Morning Jeffrey,
          >
          > Thanks for posting your work and this invitation. I've read the
          > opening chapter this morning and I have 4 comments:
          >
          > 1. I very much like your gathering of the many versions of the prayer
          > in one place. Most helpful and this will make it a good teaching tool.
          Thanks!
          >
          > 2. I agree with you that this is most probably a creation of the
          > earliest members of "the Way" (to borrow that descriptive term from
          > Acts).

          Is that what I said?
          > As you note, calling YHWH Elohim "Father," is rooted in a
          > number of resources in the Hebrew scriptures. And, of course, asking
          > for bread, for forgiveness, for aid with temptations is similarly
          > rooted.
          But what exactly is being asked for in these requests.
          > With Hal Taussig, I can imagine that Jesus might well have
          > used some of these phrases aphoristically, or that some of these
          > phrases were rooted in Jesus' aphorisms and parables, and I wonder if
          > his own language might have been part of the background of creating
          > the prayer(s), but whether that is the case or not, it is a thoroughly
          > Hebraic/ Jewish prayer with the aforementioned deep roots.

          Something I deal with in Chapter 3. But it's also rooted in Jesus'
          conception of how God wants his faithful to be his people.
          >
          > 3. Not to rehash the Q/ no Q debates, but I will note that this
          > prayer is a part of the Q sermon in the earliest layer according to
          > Kloppenborg, Mack and others. Here, all I'll say is that I think it
          > is very early and could have been created when Jesus was still alive.

          I don't deal with hypothetical texts, just the ones that we have.
          >
          > 4. If pressed for a new name, I'd choose "Apostles' Prayer," and not
          > "Disciples Prayer." Why? The foundational mission agenda is a
          > mission of envoys/ sent ones (apostles) (Q/ Luke 10:1ff). This naming
          > business gets us to the issue of how this group formed and what
          > exactly was Jesus' role in the original group/ groups? Did Jesus
          > found a group? Or was Jesus a part of a group with specific
          > offerings/ gifts that eventually led him to be acclaimed as the "lord/
          > master/ rabbi," and embodiment of the group? That's a different
          > discussion, but if this prayer/ these prayers are either the
          > composition(s) of another while Jesus was alive or in the years after
          > his execution, then what word/ title best describes them? As Paul,
          > for example, uses the "Abba" line in Galatians and Romans, I think the
          > best descriptive is: "Apostle."
          Interesting points. And just who the disciples are in Jesus eyes and
          what his intentions were in calling and gathering them is a question I
          take up in the 4th chapter.

          Jeffrey
        • Gordon Raynal
          Thanks for the reply. Here s a brief response: ... You re welcome! I hope it gets a lot of use. ... Right, I guess I pushed off to my own conclusion about
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 17 7:05 AM
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            Thanks for the reply. Here's a brief response:

            On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:38 AM, Jgibson wrote:

            > On 4/17/2013 7:23 AM, Gordon Raynal wrote:
            >> Good Morning Jeffrey,
            >>
            >> Thanks for posting your work and this invitation. I've read the
            >> opening chapter this morning and I have 4 comments:
            >>
            >> 1. I very much like your gathering of the many versions of the
            >> prayer
            >> in one place. Most helpful and this will make it a good teaching
            >> tool.
            > Thanks!

            You're welcome! I hope it gets a lot of use.
            >>
            >> 2. I agree with you that this is most probably a creation of the
            >> earliest members of "the Way" (to borrow that descriptive term from
            >> Acts).
            >
            > Is that what I said?

            Right, I guess I pushed off to my own conclusion about its earliness.
            >> As you note, calling YHWH Elohim "Father," is rooted in a
            >> number of resources in the Hebrew scriptures. And, of course, asking
            >> for bread, for forgiveness, for aid with temptations is similarly
            >> rooted.
            > But what exactly is being asked for in these requests.

            Let me read on and I'll reply then.
            >> With Hal Taussig, I can imagine that Jesus might well have
            >> used some of these phrases aphoristically, or that some of these
            >> phrases were rooted in Jesus' aphorisms and parables, and I wonder if
            >> his own language might have been part of the background of creating
            >> the prayer(s), but whether that is the case or not, it is a
            >> thoroughly
            >> Hebraic/ Jewish prayer with the aforementioned deep roots.
            >
            > Something I deal with in Chapter 3. But it's also rooted in Jesus'
            > conception of how God wants his faithful to be his people.
            >>
            >> 3. Not to rehash the Q/ no Q debates, but I will note that this
            >> prayer is a part of the Q sermon in the earliest layer according to
            >> Kloppenborg, Mack and others. Here, all I'll say is that I think it
            >> is very early and could have been created when Jesus was still alive.
            >
            > I don't deal with hypothetical texts, just the ones that we have.

            And per my note to the other group, I'm fine with that for this
            discussion. But again the earliness of this formulation is the
            question.
            >>
            >> 4. If pressed for a new name, I'd choose "Apostles' Prayer," and not
            >> "Disciples Prayer." Why? The foundational mission agenda is a
            >> mission of envoys/ sent ones (apostles) (Q/ Luke 10:1ff). This
            >> naming
            >> business gets us to the issue of how this group formed and what
            >> exactly was Jesus' role in the original group/ groups? Did Jesus
            >> found a group? Or was Jesus a part of a group with specific
            >> offerings/ gifts that eventually led him to be acclaimed as the
            >> "lord/
            >> master/ rabbi," and embodiment of the group? That's a different
            >> discussion, but if this prayer/ these prayers are either the
            >> composition(s) of another while Jesus was alive or in the years after
            >> his execution, then what word/ title best describes them? As Paul,
            >> for example, uses the "Abba" line in Galatians and Romans, I think
            >> the
            >> best descriptive is: "Apostle."
            > Interesting points. And just who the disciples are in Jesus eyes and
            > what his intentions were in calling and gathering them is a question I
            > take up in the 4th chapter.

            Again, I look forward to getting there.

            Gordon
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