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Easter Greeting

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  • John E Staton
    A happy Easter to all listmembers. Best Wishes -- JOHN E STATON www.christianreflection.org.uk
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 8, 2012
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      A happy Easter to all listmembers.

      Best Wishes

      --
      JOHN E STATON
      www.christianreflection.org.uk
    • Jgibson
      ... And a good Pesach, too. Jeffrey -- ... Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon. 1500 W. Pratt Blvd Chicago, Il. jgibson000@comcast.net
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 8, 2012
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        On 4/8/2012 11:50 AM, John E Staton wrote:
        > A happy Easter to all listmembers.
        >
        > Best Wishes
        >
        And a good Pesach, too.

        Jeffrey

        --
        ---
        Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd
        Chicago, Il.
        jgibson000@...
      • Bob Schacht
        ... This morning, one of the readings was from Acts 10:34-43, which portrays Peter saying, That message spread throughout Judea[!], beginning in Galilee[!]
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 8, 2012
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          At 09:50 AM 4/8/2012, John E Staton wrote:
          >A happy Easter to all listmembers.

          This morning, one of the readings was from Acts 10:34-43, which
          portrays Peter saying, "That message spread throughout Judea[!],
          beginning in Galilee[!] after the baptism that John announced..."

          Does that strike anyone else as odd? I thought I had recalled that
          Luke/Acts said that the ripples emanated from Jerusalem. But even
          more, saying that the message began in Galilee and spread throughout
          Judea makes it sound like Galilee is in Judea. Also, John's baptism
          is not connected with Jesus, but with an announcement. And I'm not
          sure I understand the "spreading throughout Judea" thing. The Gospels
          don't seem to spend much time on that-- or what am I forgetting?

          Happy Easter,
          Bob Schacht
          Northern Arizona University

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dennis Goffin
          Bob, I think that beginning in Galilee could well be a later insertion like Mk 14:28 & 16:7, not to mention the whole of John 21. To my mind, after Peter s
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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            Bob,
            I think that 'beginning in Galilee' could well be a later insertion like Mk 14:28 & 16:7, not to mention the whole of John 21. To my mind, after Peter's death, there was a movement among some early Christians away from Paul & his views back to those of Peter who was preeminent in Galilee. His prestige was obviously considerable, leading to his name being taken pseudepigraphically in the epistles.
            Dennis

            ---------------------

            Dennis Goffin

            Chorleywood UK


            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            From: r_schacht@...
            Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 12:42:08 -0700
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] Easter Greeting




























            At 09:50 AM 4/8/2012, John E Staton wrote:

            >A happy Easter to all listmembers.



            This morning, one of the readings was from Acts 10:34-43, which

            portrays Peter saying, "That message spread throughout Judea[!],

            beginning in Galilee[!] after the baptism that John announced..."



            Does that strike anyone else as odd? I thought I had recalled that

            Luke/Acts said that the ripples emanated from Jerusalem. But even

            more, saying that the message began in Galilee and spread throughout

            Judea makes it sound like Galilee is in Judea. Also, John's baptism

            is not connected with Jesus, but with an announcement. And I'm not

            sure I understand the "spreading throughout Judea" thing. The Gospels

            don't seem to spend much time on that-- or what am I forgetting?



            Happy Easter,

            Bob Schacht

            Northern Arizona University



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • johnestaton
            Bob, The words you refer to in Acts 10 refer to Jesus preaching before his passion, Acts 1:8 refers to the preaching of the church post-Pentecost. After the
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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              Bob,
              The words you refer to in Acts 10 refer to Jesus' preaching before his passion, Acts 1:8 refers to the preaching of the church post-Pentecost. "After the baptism that John announced" shows the earthly ministry of Jesus is intended. This did start in Galilee and spread to Judea. The gospels don't make much of this, except for John, but incidents such as the provision of the colt for Palm Sunday and the upper room for the Last Supper suggest Jesus had friends in Jerusalem, and that would in turn suggest the message about Jesus had spread there too. There is actually no foundation for the scholarly assumption that Jesus did not visit Jerusalem until the last week in his life, or that his ministry lasted just a year. This is an impression given by the gospel writers' literary imperative of getting to the events of the Passion as soon as possible. John's idea of. 3-year ministry with multiple visits to Jerusalem is more credible, even if he has moved the cleansing of the temple narrative for his own literary purposes.
              Though whether the writer of Acts envisages Galilee as being in Judea is a moot point. He could just be saying the message spread from Galilee to Judea in a clumsy manner.

              Best Wishes

              John E Staton

              --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...> wrote:
              >
              > At 09:50 AM 4/8/2012, John E Staton wrote:
              > >A happy Easter to all listmembers.
              >
              > This morning, one of the readings was from Acts 10:34-43, which
              > portrays Peter saying, "That message spread throughout Judea[!],
              > beginning in Galilee[!] after the baptism that John announced..."
              >
              > Does that strike anyone else as odd? I thought I had recalled that
              > Luke/Acts said that the ripples emanated from Jerusalem. But even
              > more, saying that the message began in Galilee and spread throughout
              > Judea makes it sound like Galilee is in Judea. Also, John's baptism
              > is not connected with Jesus, but with an announcement. And I'm not
              > sure I understand the "spreading throughout Judea" thing. The Gospels
              > don't seem to spend much time on that-- or what am I forgetting?
              >
              > Happy Easter,
              > Bob Schacht
              > Northern Arizona University
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Stephen Goranson
              Whatever the writer s intention, Galilee is in some uses part of the land of the Jews, a greater Judaea including Judaea proper, Galilee and Peraea. Stephen
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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                Whatever the writer's intention, Galilee is in some uses part of the land of the Jews, a greater Judaea including Judaea proper, Galilee and Peraea.

                Stephen Goranson
                http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                ________________________________
                From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of johnestaton [john.staton@...]
                Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 5:54 AM
                To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [XTalk] Re: Easter Greeting



                Bob,
                The words you refer to in Acts 10 refer to Jesus' preaching before his passion, Acts 1:8 refers to the preaching of the church post-Pentecost. "After the baptism that John announced" shows the earthly ministry of Jesus is intended. This did start in Galilee and spread to Judea. The gospels don't make much of this, except for John, but incidents such as the provision of the colt for Palm Sunday and the upper room for the Last Supper suggest Jesus had friends in Jerusalem, and that would in turn suggest the message about Jesus had spread there too. There is actually no foundation for the scholarly assumption that Jesus did not visit Jerusalem until the last week in his life, or that his ministry lasted just a year. This is an impression given by the gospel writers' literary imperative of getting to the events of the Passion as soon as possible. John's idea of. 3-year ministry with multiple visits to Jerusalem is more credible, even if he has moved the cleansing of the temple narrative for his own literary purposes.
                Though whether the writer of Acts envisages Galilee as being in Judea is a moot point. He could just be saying the message spread from Galilee to Judea in a clumsy manner.

                Best Wishes

                John E Staton

                --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com>, Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...> wrote:
                >
                > At 09:50 AM 4/8/2012, John E Staton wrote:
                > >A happy Easter to all listmembers.
                >
                > This morning, one of the readings was from Acts 10:34-43, which
                > portrays Peter saying, "That message spread throughout Judea[!],
                > beginning in Galilee[!] after the baptism that John announced..."
                >
                > Does that strike anyone else as odd? I thought I had recalled that
                > Luke/Acts said that the ripples emanated from Jerusalem. But even
                > more, saying that the message began in Galilee and spread throughout
                > Judea makes it sound like Galilee is in Judea. Also, John's baptism
                > is not connected with Jesus, but with an announcement. And I'm not
                > sure I understand the "spreading throughout Judea" thing. The Gospels
                > don't seem to spend much time on that-- or what am I forgetting?
                >
                > Happy Easter,
                > Bob Schacht
                > Northern Arizona University
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                Yes, John has it right I think. This is meant to be a summary of proclamation of the word , (by which I think Luke means activity of Jesus ministry -- not
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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                  Yes, John has it right I think. This is meant to be a summary of "proclamation of the word", (by which I think Luke means activity of Jesus' ministry -- not so much his preaching as the totality of his ministry is "the good news of peace / the message (rhma)), which began after John's baptism in Galilee and proceeded to the "entire region of Judea". Here Judea I think might mean the area inhabited by the "jews" (just like John has Ioudaioi in outside of Judea as well). So it is somewhat of a synechdoche, thus the "whole of Judea" is simply a figure of speech.

                  I am interested in the way Luke tells the story in a way that seems to implicate John's emphasis on Judea, another John-Luke point in common. Of course Luke's travel narrative has no specific geographical points, and might be assumed by Luke to include "all of Judea".

                  mark

                  Mark A. Matson
                  Milligan College
                  http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                  ________________________________________
                  From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnestaton [john.staton@...]
                  Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 5:54 AM
                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [XTalk] Re: Easter Greeting

                  Bob,
                  The words you refer to in Acts 10 refer to Jesus' preaching before his passion, Acts 1:8 refers to the preaching of the church post-Pentecost. "After the baptism that John announced" shows the earthly ministry of Jesus is intended. This did start in Galilee and spread to Judea. The gospels don't make much of this, except for John, but incidents such as the provision of the colt for Palm Sunday and the upper room for the Last Supper suggest Jesus had friends in Jerusalem, and that would in turn suggest the message about Jesus had spread there too. There is actually no foundation for the scholarly assumption that Jesus did not visit Jerusalem until the last week in his life, or that his ministry lasted just a year. This is an impression given by the gospel writers' literary imperative of getting to the events of the Passion as soon as possible. John's idea of. 3-year ministry with multiple visits to Jerusalem is more credible, even if he has moved the cleansing of the temple narrative for his own literary purposes.
                  Though whether the writer of Acts envisages Galilee as being in Judea is a moot point. He could just be saying the message spread from Galilee to Judea in a clumsy manner.

                  Best Wishes

                  John E Staton

                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > At 09:50 AM 4/8/2012, John E Staton wrote:
                  > >A happy Easter to all listmembers.
                  >
                  > This morning, one of the readings was from Acts 10:34-43, which
                  > portrays Peter saying, "That message spread throughout Judea[!],
                  > beginning in Galilee[!] after the baptism that John announced..."
                  >
                  > Does that strike anyone else as odd? I thought I had recalled that
                  > Luke/Acts said that the ripples emanated from Jerusalem. But even
                  > more, saying that the message began in Galilee and spread throughout
                  > Judea makes it sound like Galilee is in Judea. Also, John's baptism
                  > is not connected with Jesus, but with an announcement. And I'm not
                  > sure I understand the "spreading throughout Judea" thing. The Gospels
                  > don't seem to spend much time on that-- or what am I forgetting?
                  >
                  > Happy Easter,
                  > Bob Schacht
                  > Northern Arizona University
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




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                • Bob Schacht
                  ... I am aware that the underlying Greek term is ambiguous, but the way it is presented to us in translation specifies the geographic and political unit that
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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                    At 03:17 AM 4/9/2012, Stephen Goranson wrote:
                    >Whatever the writer's intention, Galilee is in some uses part of the
                    >land of the Jews, a greater Judaea including Judaea proper, Galilee and Peraea.

                    I am aware that the underlying Greek term is ambiguous, but the way
                    it is presented to us in translation specifies the geographic and
                    political unit that did not include Galilee. If the reference was to
                    the "Jewish world" or some such, why don't the translators say so? Or
                    maybe not capitalize "judea". How would the first century
                    reader/hearer have understood this sentence? Is this a translation
                    issue, because it is just difficult to convey in English the
                    ambiguity in the Greek?

                    Bob Schacht
                    Northern Arizona University

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bob Schacht
                    ... Yes, I think you & John are right; I was conflating the spread of the good news during Jesus lifetime with what happened after his ascension. That is a
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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                      At 07:20 AM 4/9/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                      >Yes, John has it right I think. This is meant to be a summary of
                      >"proclamation of the word", (by which I think Luke means activity of
                      >Jesus' ministry -- not so much his preaching as the totality of his
                      >ministry is "the good news of peace / the message (rhma)), which
                      >began after John's baptism in Galilee and proceeded to the "entire
                      >region of Judea".

                      Yes, I think you & John are right; I was conflating the spread of the
                      good news during Jesus' lifetime with what happened after his
                      ascension. That is a helpful distinction, and I'm sorry that I missed it.

                      > Here Judea I think might mean the area inhabited by the "jews"
                      > (just like John has Ioudaioi in outside of Judea as well).

                      I was thinking of this as well. But was John really referring to Jews
                      in general, or was he sometimes quite intentionally restricting his
                      focus to the inhabitants of the Roman province of Judea? This is an
                      important distinction, because understanding Ioudaioi everywhere in
                      GJohn as Jews in general, rather than inhabitants of Judea, has been
                      the basis of Christian Jew-bashing for centuries. But I suppose this
                      takes us beyond the scope of this list.

                      > So it is somewhat of a synechdoche, thus the "whole of Judea" is
                      > simply a figure of speech.
                      >
                      >I am interested in the way Luke tells the story in a way that seems
                      >to implicate John's emphasis on Judea, another John-Luke point in
                      >common. Of course Luke's travel narrative has no specific
                      >geographical points, and might be assumed by Luke to include "all of Judea".

                      An interesting point. Thanks.

                      Bob Schacht
                      Northern Arizona University

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Mealand
                      I think the relation between Galilee and Judah changed several times. Galilee was annexed by Judah at least by the time of Alexander Jannaeus. After the end
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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                        I think the relation between Galilee and Judah changed
                        several times. Galilee was annexed by Judah at least
                        by the time of Alexander Jannaeus. After the end of the
                        Hasmonaean rule Herod ruled the whole territory as a
                        client king subordinate to Rome. After his death Galilee
                        was split off again, and given to Antipas as part of his tetrarchy.
                        So around 4 BCE to 41 CE Galilee was separately ruled, as were
                        some other areas.

                        Later on Herod Agrippa was well in, first with Gaius, then
                        with Claudius, and was given, first one of the tetrarchies
                        then Galilee, then Judaea and Samaria. But when Herod Agrippa
                        died Galilee went under direct Roman rule along with much of
                        the rest, though later again (c.61 CE) his son Agrippa II did
                        get some of Galilee.

                        So whether someone "should have" described Galilee as part of Judah
                        would depend partly on the time written about, and partly on the
                        time of writing, in order to be correct politically (as opposed to
                        being politically correct). On the other hand popular usage
                        might have been looser, but given the shifting pattern above
                        it might be hard to decide if someone is being loose, or being
                        correct either with reference to their own period, or to the period
                        described.

                        So all this may clarify some things but make others more murky.

                        David M.


                        ---------
                        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                        --
                        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                      • Bob Schacht
                        Thanks to Mark (previous email) and David (below) for their helpful comments. To add another complexity regarding the scope of who was Jewish, I suspect that
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 9, 2012
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                          Thanks to Mark (previous email) and David (below) for their helpful comments.
                          To add another complexity regarding the scope of who was Jewish, I
                          suspect that the scope differed depending on whether or not you were
                          a resident of Judea. That is, Judeans might have reserved that label
                          for themselves, especially before 70 AD (viz. John 1:46), whereas
                          Samaritans and Galileans might have chosen to identify themselves as
                          Ioudaioi in the larger sense.

                          Also, would Antipas have used the term Ioudaioi in reference to his
                          own citizens?

                          Is Josephus ambiguous in the same way?

                          Bob Schacht
                          Northern Arizona University

                          At 09:54 AM 4/9/2012, David Mealand wrote:

                          >I think the relation between Galilee and Judah changed
                          >several times. Galilee was annexed by Judah at least
                          >by the time of Alexander Jannaeus. After the end of the
                          >Hasmonaean rule Herod ruled the whole territory as a
                          >client king subordinate to Rome. After his death Galilee
                          >was split off again, and given to Antipas as part of his tetrarchy.
                          >So around 4 BCE to 41 CE Galilee was separately ruled, as were
                          >some other areas.
                          >
                          >Later on Herod Agrippa was well in, first with Gaius, then
                          >with Claudius, and was given, first one of the tetrarchies
                          >then Galilee, then Judaea and Samaria. But when Herod Agrippa
                          >died Galilee went under direct Roman rule along with much of
                          >the rest, though later again (c.61 CE) his son Agrippa II did
                          >get some of Galilee.
                          >
                          >So whether someone "should have" described Galilee as part of Judah
                          >would depend partly on the time written about, and partly on the
                          >time of writing, in order to be correct politically (as opposed to
                          >being politically correct). On the other hand popular usage
                          >might have been looser, but given the shifting pattern above
                          >it might be hard to decide if someone is being loose, or being
                          >correct either with reference to their own period, or to the period
                          >described.
                          >
                          >So all this may clarify some things but make others more murky.
                          >
                          >David M.
                          >
                          >
                          >---------
                          >David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
                          >
                          >
                          >--
                          >The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                          >Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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