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RE: [XTalk] Pentecost and charismata

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... Thanks. I gather that you think these sources are relevant, and will look into them. Bob Schacht Northern Arizona University P.S. Google has its eyes on
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 4, 2012
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      At 06:18 AM 3/4/2012, Stephen Goranson wrote:
      >Bob, are you asking for discussions such as Max Weber on
      >"routinization of charisma" or Peter L. Berger on "domestication"?

      Thanks. I gather that you think these sources are relevant, and will
      look into them.

      Bob Schacht
      Northern Arizona University
      P.S. Google has its eyes on this discussion group.

      >Stephen Goranson
      >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
      >________________________________
      >From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] on
      >behalf of Bob Schacht [bobschacht@...]
      >Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 2:25 AM
      >To: crosstalk2
      >Subject: [XTalk] Pentecost and charismata
      >
      >
      >
      >As portrayed in Acts, the followers of Jesus were transformed at
      >Pentecost, and there began a period of intense fellowship portrayed
      >in Acts 2 & 4. When Paul writes about his "road to Damascus"
      >experience, the Damascus congregation seems to have some of that
      >Pentecostal spirit. Then Paul writes about charismata among the
      >Corinthians a few decades later, and we seem to see something similar
      >to the original Pentecostal movement in Jerusalem. But in both cases,
      >it seems to have been difficult to sustain this charismatic
      >fellowship for long. After Acts 4, we seem to hear no more about
      >charismatic fellowship in the Jerusalem church. The later Pastorals
      >focus less attention on the Charismata than on church organization.
      >What happened?
      >
      >Periodically, the church in various places experiences a period of
      >renewal, engendering much excitement, new converts, etc. This initial
      >stage is often, but not necessarily, pentecostal in some sense. But
      >that stage seems everywhere difficult to sustain. People get older,
      >some die, the "magic" seems to fade, and people move away. Sometimes
      >they come back, expecting everything to be the same as when they
      >left, but things have moved on in their absence. For example, when
      >Paul returns to visit the Jerusalem Church, as told in Galatians, the
      >Jerusalem church seems very different than it was portrayed in the
      >first 4 Chapters of Acts.
      >
      >I could cite other examples from the last 50 years, or the Great
      >Awakening, or Babette's Feast, or a host of other examples, including
      >my Iowa ancestors, but I suspect someone has already researched this
      >pattern. I would be grateful if someone would share with me your
      >favorite and most insightful references so that I may understand this
      >pattern better. I think it would help us understand the development
      >of Christianity in the First Century.
      >
      >Thanks,
      >Bob Schacht
      >Northern Arizona University
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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    • David Mealand
      Seem to remember this book looked at routinization in NT period: The Pauline Churches: A Socio-historical Study of Institutionalization in the Pauline and
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 4, 2012
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        Seem to remember this book looked at routinization in NT period:
        The Pauline Churches: A Socio-historical Study of
        Institutionalization in the Pauline and Deutero-Pauline
        Writings By: MacDonald, Margaret Y.. Cambridge Univ Pr, 1988

        It is also worth considering if Acts dates from a later more ordered
        phase just why it describes the very early period quite as it does.

        David M.

        ---------
        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


        --
        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
      • celucien_joseph
        ... From: David Mealand Sent: March 04, 2012 2:10 PM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Pentecost and charismata Seem to
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 4, 2012
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: David Mealand <D.Mealand@...>
          Sent: March 04, 2012 2:10 PM
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [XTalk] Pentecost and charismata



          Seem to remember this book looked at routinization in NT period:
          The Pauline Churches: A Socio-historical Study of
          Institutionalization in the Pauline and Deutero-Pauline
          Writings By: MacDonald, Margaret Y.. Cambridge Univ Pr, 1988

          It is also worth considering if Acts dates from a later more ordered
          phase just why it describes the very early period quite as it does.

          David M.

          ---------
          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

          --
          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


          Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post

          [The entire original message is not included]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ph.maertens
          Interesting question. My guess is that in the initial stage there exist high expectations which are not always fulfilled. In the case of Primitive
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 5, 2012
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            Interesting question. My guess is that in the initial stage there exist high expectations which are not always fulfilled. In the case of Primitive Christianity, this would be the messianic hope. With the passing of time comes the realization that the expectations will not be realized in a near future. This would have an impact on how members relate to the group and would lead to a remodeling of the identity of the group. Thus members would reconsider their commitment to the group, giving it less priority than before, or dropping out altogether. The group itself would reconsider its role / place in society and vis-à-vis its members and probably readjust its expectations. At this point, I guess, it would become more institutionalized. This in turn would lead to a situation considered deviant compared to the initial “mythological” situation. In order to resolve this tension, people would try to restore the group “as it was in the beginning” (I wonder if this pattern may be approached to the views of Mircea Eliade, The myth of eternal return), taking up its most salient features. In the case of Christian movements, this would be the Pentecostal conditions with the high messianic hope.

            The question remains to know under what conditions members / groups return to the initial situation. One possible answer lies in the influence of newcomers who would be more sensitive to the discrepancies between the ideal situation described in the fundamental texts and the actual situation. Another one is the consider the general context. It could be that in situation of crises people will be more willing to take their commitment to the group ideology serious. This could lead to a sharper comparison between the fundamental texts and the official discourse of the group.

            As I said, this is just my guess, based partly on what I recall reading about social psychology and group dynamics. Maybe a good place to start with along these lines are the following:



            Charles Stangor, Social Groups in Action and Interaction, New York / Hove; Psychology Press, 2004



            Michael A. Hogg, Dominic Abrams, Social Identifications. A Social Psychology of Intergroup Relations and Group Processes, London / New York: Routledge, 1998



            Michael A. Hogg, R. Scott Tindale (eds), Blackwell Handbook of Social Psychology: Group Processes, Malden / Oxford: Blackwell, 2001, 86-106



            Sunny greetings from the Algarve, Portugal

            Philip Maertens



            De: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de David Mealand
            Enviada: domingo, 4 de Março de 2012 20:11
            Para: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            Assunto: RE: [XTalk] Pentecost and charismata






            Seem to remember this book looked at routinization in NT period:
            The Pauline Churches: A Socio-historical Study of
            Institutionalization in the Pauline and Deutero-Pauline
            Writings By: MacDonald, Margaret Y.. Cambridge Univ Pr, 1988

            It is also worth considering if Acts dates from a later more ordered
            phase just why it describes the very early period quite as it does.

            David M.

            ---------
            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

            --
            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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