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Re: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Bob Schacht Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ? ... Oh boy. The
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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      -----Original Message-----
      From: Bob Schacht
      Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM
      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

      At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
      >David:
      >
      >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
      >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
      >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
      >
      >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
      >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
      >buried in the middle of this word...
      >
      >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
      >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

      Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
      Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

      Bob Schacht
      Northern Arizona University


      Hi Bob:

      I guess I have made my position as clear on this as I can. As you know,
      Greek did not have a SH (I wonder how they told someone to hush?) so they
      used a sigma as they did for Yeshua. We have to guess what the sigma in
      Ἰσκαριώθ transliterated. Was it a shin or a samekh? If it was a shin, it
      is a perfect transliteration for "Man from Karioth" but if it’s a sigma for
      "Sikar" than we have to dance around the flag pole explaining an
      transposition of the iota and sigma and that’s too much for me. If Karioth
      wasn't just past the MacDonald's south of Hebron and a right at Walmart's,
      it would be different but Mr, Ockham is tapping me on the shoulder.

      Best Regards,

      Jack
    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
      Bob: More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really man from Kerioth as Jack has proposed. One other thing that is worth noting. For
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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        Bob:

        More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really "man from Kerioth" as Jack has proposed.

        One other thing that is worth noting. For Iskariwth to be referring to sicarii we have some phonetic difficulties:

        1. The unnecessary addition of the "is-" on the front. This is more likely to be a hellenished version of "ish"
        2. The word "sicarios" has the strong iota between the sigma and the kappa, and that seems hard for me to imagine simply being elided.
        3. The form "iskariwth" has the long omega, which I guess could be an semitic feminine plural ending, but that seems odd.

        So what you would have to imagine is that (1) a Latin word (sikarius) had been Aramaized (no evidence that this Latin word did come over as a loan word in Aramaic -- I did a quick double check of Jastrow and couldn't see anythign quickly, but could stand to be corrected on this), (2) the loan word then went through some phonetic changes -- adding an "is- or ish-" on the front, and dropping a vowel in the middle, and then (3) that this then became the nickname for Judas in such a way that people knew he was really some kind of assassin or wielder of the short curved knife..

        I dunno. Sounds like the guy hailed from the town of kerioth.


        Mark A. Matson
        Milligan College
        Milligan College, TN
        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
        ________________________________________
        From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht [r_schacht@...]
        Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:11 PM
        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

        At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
        >David:
        >
        >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
        >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
        >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
        >
        >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
        >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
        >buried in the middle of this word...
        >
        >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
        >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

        Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
        Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

        Bob Schacht
        Northern Arizona University


        >Mark A. Matson
        >Milligan College, TN
        >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
      • Gary Greenberg
        John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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          John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members would publicly be known by the same anti-Roman, and Herod or Pilate wouldn’t crack down. And how likely is it that a member of a family bitterly opposed to collaboration with the Romans would go to the Sadducee collaborators and work out a deal to betray a religious teacher who urges his followers to accept Pharisee teachings (per Matthew.)

          Gary
          Gary Greenberg
          Web site: Bible Myth and History

          Author of the following books

          101 Myths of the Bible
          The Moses Mystery
          The Judas Brief
          King David Versus Israel
          Who Wrote the Gospels?
          Manetho: A Study in Egyptian Chronology

          From: Dennis Goffin
          Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:02 AM
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?


          Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
          Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
          To: mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com
          From: mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk
          Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
          Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

          Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

          (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

          in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

          It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

          with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

          and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

          after the demise of Judas.

          Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

          the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

          have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

          a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

          or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

          the discussion.

          David M.

          ---------

          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

          --

          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



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