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RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

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  • Dennis Goffin
    Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
      Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
      Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      From: D.Mealand@...
      Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
      Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?






























      Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

      (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

      in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

      It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

      with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

      and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

      after the demise of Judas.



      Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

      the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

      have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

      a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

      or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

      the discussion.



      David M.



      ---------

      David Mealand, University of Edinburgh



      --

      The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

      Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious. Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans? Bob Schacht
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
        At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
        >David:
        >
        >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
        >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
        >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
        >
        >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
        >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
        >buried in the middle of this word...
        >
        >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
        >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

        Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
        Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

        Bob Schacht
        Northern Arizona University


        >Mark A. Matson
        >Milligan College, TN
        >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
        >________________________________________
        >From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
        >Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
        >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
        >To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?
        >
        >Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
        >(sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
        >in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
        >It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
        >with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
        >and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
        >after the demise of Judas.
        >
        >Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
        >the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
        >have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
        >a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
        >or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
        >the discussion.
        >
        >David M.
        >
        >
        >---------
        >David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
        >
        >
        >--
        >The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
        >Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Jack Kilmon
        Good Morning, Dennis: Ossuaries were family things and family members would not refer to their fathers, husbands, sons, etc as Dennis from Hertfordshire
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
          Good Morning, Dennis:
          Ossuaries were "family things" and family members would not refer to their
          fathers, husbands, sons, etc as "Dennis from Hertfordshire" or "Jack from
          Houston." Nicknames were given by family members, hence understandable on
          ossuaries. Nicknames were also used in social groups to distinguish one
          Yahosef, Ya'qub, Yeshua, Yehudah or Shymeon (most popular name) from
          another. One example of an ossuarial inscription giving a location is the
          "Simon of Cyrene" tomb excavated by Sukenik and Avigad in 1941. The ossuary
          of Simon's daughter Sara bears the Greek inscription "Sara (of) Simon of
          Ptolemais" Ptolemais is one of the 5 main cities in Cyrenaica. Other than
          Caiaphas, this is one of the only ossuaries most probably of a known New
          Testament figure given the additional evidence of an ossuary in that tomb
          for Simon's known son, Alexander. I realize cynicism is the current
          scholarly fad but you can only stretch coincidence so far. There is also a
          point where you have to appeal to the cultural anthropology of the time and
          place and nicknames were of family or social group use. I cannot fathom
          "Jude the guy with a knife" when there is a village called Kirioth just down
          the road. The Hebrew ISH Kirioth instead of the Aramaic Kirioth-itha
          suggests to me that it is a designator used by the family for a long time,
          perhaps some priests in the family...IF, again Judas "Iscariot" was an
          historical figure.

          There are so few clues, either archaeological or textual, about the
          prosopography of the New Testament, including Jesus himself, that we have to
          sink ourselves into the social and cultural anthropology and languages of
          the time.

          Best Regards,
          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          Houston, TX


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dennis Goffin
          Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:27 PM
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS


          Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about
          the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
          patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the
          Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So
          what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously
          advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why
          Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

          ---------------------

          Dennis Goffin

          Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          From: jkilmon@...
          Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























          Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



          The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

          Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

          be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

          Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

          license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

          Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

          preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

          Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

          collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

          guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

          name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

          Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

          their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

          Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

          (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

          the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

          times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

          which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

          syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

          acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

          I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

          his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

          whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

          them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

          types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

          Jesus having siblings.



          I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

          Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

          the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



          Regards,



          Jack



          Jack Kilmon

          Houston, TX



          -----Original Message-----

          From: Ronald Price

          Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

          To: CrossTalk

          Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



          Dennis and Jack,



          Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

          thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

          including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

          to have been!



          Ron Price,



          Derbyshire, UK



          http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Bob Schacht Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ? ... Oh boy. The
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bob Schacht
            Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

            At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
            >David:
            >
            >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
            >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
            >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
            >
            >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
            >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
            >buried in the middle of this word...
            >
            >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
            >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

            Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
            Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

            Bob Schacht
            Northern Arizona University


            Hi Bob:

            I guess I have made my position as clear on this as I can. As you know,
            Greek did not have a SH (I wonder how they told someone to hush?) so they
            used a sigma as they did for Yeshua. We have to guess what the sigma in
            Ἰσκαριώθ transliterated. Was it a shin or a samekh? If it was a shin, it
            is a perfect transliteration for "Man from Karioth" but if it’s a sigma for
            "Sikar" than we have to dance around the flag pole explaining an
            transposition of the iota and sigma and that’s too much for me. If Karioth
            wasn't just past the MacDonald's south of Hebron and a right at Walmart's,
            it would be different but Mr, Ockham is tapping me on the shoulder.

            Best Regards,

            Jack
          • Matson, Mark (Academic)
            Bob: More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really man from Kerioth as Jack has proposed. One other thing that is worth noting. For
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
              Bob:

              More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really "man from Kerioth" as Jack has proposed.

              One other thing that is worth noting. For Iskariwth to be referring to sicarii we have some phonetic difficulties:

              1. The unnecessary addition of the "is-" on the front. This is more likely to be a hellenished version of "ish"
              2. The word "sicarios" has the strong iota between the sigma and the kappa, and that seems hard for me to imagine simply being elided.
              3. The form "iskariwth" has the long omega, which I guess could be an semitic feminine plural ending, but that seems odd.

              So what you would have to imagine is that (1) a Latin word (sikarius) had been Aramaized (no evidence that this Latin word did come over as a loan word in Aramaic -- I did a quick double check of Jastrow and couldn't see anythign quickly, but could stand to be corrected on this), (2) the loan word then went through some phonetic changes -- adding an "is- or ish-" on the front, and dropping a vowel in the middle, and then (3) that this then became the nickname for Judas in such a way that people knew he was really some kind of assassin or wielder of the short curved knife..

              I dunno. Sounds like the guy hailed from the town of kerioth.


              Mark A. Matson
              Milligan College
              Milligan College, TN
              http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
              ________________________________________
              From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht [r_schacht@...]
              Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:11 PM
              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

              At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
              >David:
              >
              >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
              >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
              >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
              >
              >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
              >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
              >buried in the middle of this word...
              >
              >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
              >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

              Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
              Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

              Bob Schacht
              Northern Arizona University


              >Mark A. Matson
              >Milligan College, TN
              >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
            • Gary Greenberg
              John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
                John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members would publicly be known by the same anti-Roman, and Herod or Pilate wouldn’t crack down. And how likely is it that a member of a family bitterly opposed to collaboration with the Romans would go to the Sadducee collaborators and work out a deal to betray a religious teacher who urges his followers to accept Pharisee teachings (per Matthew.)

                Gary
                Gary Greenberg
                Web site: Bible Myth and History

                Author of the following books

                101 Myths of the Bible
                The Moses Mystery
                The Judas Brief
                King David Versus Israel
                Who Wrote the Gospels?
                Manetho: A Study in Egyptian Chronology

                From: Dennis Goffin
                Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:02 AM
                To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?


                Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
                Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
                To: mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com
                From: mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk
                Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
                Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

                (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

                in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

                It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

                with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

                and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

                after the demise of Judas.

                Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

                the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

                have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

                a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

                or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

                the discussion.

                David M.

                ---------

                David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

                --

                The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

                Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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