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RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

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  • Dennis Goffin
    Correct me if I m wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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      Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

      ---------------------

      Dennis Goffin

      Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      From: jkilmon@...
      Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























      Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



      The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

      Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

      be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

      Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

      license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

      Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

      preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

      Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

      collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

      guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

      name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

      Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

      their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

      Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

      (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

      the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

      times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

      which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

      syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

      acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

      I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

      his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

      whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

      them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

      types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

      Jesus having siblings.



      I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

      Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

      the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



      Regards,



      Jack



      Jack Kilmon

      Houston, TX



      -----Original Message-----

      From: Ronald Price

      Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

      To: CrossTalk

      Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



      Dennis and Jack,



      Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

      thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

      including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

      to have been!



      Ron Price,



      Derbyshire, UK



      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • David Mealand
      Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE. It
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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        Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
        (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
        in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
        It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
        with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
        and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
        after the demise of Judas.

        Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
        the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
        have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
        a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
        or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
        the discussion.

        David M.


        ---------
        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


        --
        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
      • Dennis Goffin
        Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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          Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
          Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          From: D.Mealand@...
          Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
          Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?






























          Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

          (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

          in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

          It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

          with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

          and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

          after the demise of Judas.



          Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

          the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

          have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

          a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

          or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

          the discussion.



          David M.



          ---------

          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh



          --

          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matson, Mark (Academic)
          David: A quick check of TLG using search string sikar found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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            David:

            A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).

            Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is buried in the middle of this word...

            Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later fathers, and always to mean assassin.

            Mark A. Matson
            Milligan College, TN
            http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
            ________________________________________
            From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
            Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

            Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
            (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
            in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
            It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
            with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
            and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
            after the demise of Judas.

            Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
            the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
            have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
            a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
            or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
            the discussion.

            David M.


            ---------
            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


            --
            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




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          • Bob Schacht
            ... Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious. Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans? Bob Schacht
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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              At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
              >David:
              >
              >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
              >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
              >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
              >
              >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
              >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
              >buried in the middle of this word...
              >
              >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
              >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

              Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
              Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

              Bob Schacht
              Northern Arizona University


              >Mark A. Matson
              >Milligan College, TN
              >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
              >________________________________________
              >From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
              >Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
              >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
              >To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?
              >
              >Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
              >(sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
              >in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
              >It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
              >with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
              >and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
              >after the demise of Judas.
              >
              >Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
              >the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
              >have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
              >a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
              >or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
              >the discussion.
              >
              >David M.
              >
              >
              >---------
              >David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
              >
              >
              >--
              >The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
              >Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
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              >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
              >
              >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
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              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jack Kilmon
              Good Morning, Dennis: Ossuaries were family things and family members would not refer to their fathers, husbands, sons, etc as Dennis from Hertfordshire
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                Good Morning, Dennis:
                Ossuaries were "family things" and family members would not refer to their
                fathers, husbands, sons, etc as "Dennis from Hertfordshire" or "Jack from
                Houston." Nicknames were given by family members, hence understandable on
                ossuaries. Nicknames were also used in social groups to distinguish one
                Yahosef, Ya'qub, Yeshua, Yehudah or Shymeon (most popular name) from
                another. One example of an ossuarial inscription giving a location is the
                "Simon of Cyrene" tomb excavated by Sukenik and Avigad in 1941. The ossuary
                of Simon's daughter Sara bears the Greek inscription "Sara (of) Simon of
                Ptolemais" Ptolemais is one of the 5 main cities in Cyrenaica. Other than
                Caiaphas, this is one of the only ossuaries most probably of a known New
                Testament figure given the additional evidence of an ossuary in that tomb
                for Simon's known son, Alexander. I realize cynicism is the current
                scholarly fad but you can only stretch coincidence so far. There is also a
                point where you have to appeal to the cultural anthropology of the time and
                place and nicknames were of family or social group use. I cannot fathom
                "Jude the guy with a knife" when there is a village called Kirioth just down
                the road. The Hebrew ISH Kirioth instead of the Aramaic Kirioth-itha
                suggests to me that it is a designator used by the family for a long time,
                perhaps some priests in the family...IF, again Judas "Iscariot" was an
                historical figure.

                There are so few clues, either archaeological or textual, about the
                prosopography of the New Testament, including Jesus himself, that we have to
                sink ourselves into the social and cultural anthropology and languages of
                the time.

                Best Regards,
                Jack

                Jack Kilmon
                Houston, TX


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dennis Goffin
                Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:27 PM
                To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS


                Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about
                the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
                patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the
                Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So
                what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously
                advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why
                Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

                ---------------------

                Dennis Goffin

                Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                From: jkilmon@...
                Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
                Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























                Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



                The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

                Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

                be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

                Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

                license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

                Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

                preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

                Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

                collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

                guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

                name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

                Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

                their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

                Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

                (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

                the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

                times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

                which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

                syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

                acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

                I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

                his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

                whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

                them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

                types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

                Jesus having siblings.



                I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

                Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

                the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



                Regards,



                Jack



                Jack Kilmon

                Houston, TX



                -----Original Message-----

                From: Ronald Price

                Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

                To: CrossTalk

                Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



                Dennis and Jack,



                Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

                thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

                including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

                to have been!



                Ron Price,



                Derbyshire, UK



                http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Jack Kilmon
                ... From: Bob Schacht Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ? ... Oh boy. The
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Bob Schacht
                  Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM
                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                  At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                  >David:
                  >
                  >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                  >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                  >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                  >
                  >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                  >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                  >buried in the middle of this word...
                  >
                  >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                  >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                  Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                  Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                  Bob Schacht
                  Northern Arizona University


                  Hi Bob:

                  I guess I have made my position as clear on this as I can. As you know,
                  Greek did not have a SH (I wonder how they told someone to hush?) so they
                  used a sigma as they did for Yeshua. We have to guess what the sigma in
                  Ἰσκαριώθ transliterated. Was it a shin or a samekh? If it was a shin, it
                  is a perfect transliteration for "Man from Karioth" but if it’s a sigma for
                  "Sikar" than we have to dance around the flag pole explaining an
                  transposition of the iota and sigma and that’s too much for me. If Karioth
                  wasn't just past the MacDonald's south of Hebron and a right at Walmart's,
                  it would be different but Mr, Ockham is tapping me on the shoulder.

                  Best Regards,

                  Jack
                • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                  Bob: More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really man from Kerioth as Jack has proposed. One other thing that is worth noting. For
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                    Bob:

                    More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really "man from Kerioth" as Jack has proposed.

                    One other thing that is worth noting. For Iskariwth to be referring to sicarii we have some phonetic difficulties:

                    1. The unnecessary addition of the "is-" on the front. This is more likely to be a hellenished version of "ish"
                    2. The word "sicarios" has the strong iota between the sigma and the kappa, and that seems hard for me to imagine simply being elided.
                    3. The form "iskariwth" has the long omega, which I guess could be an semitic feminine plural ending, but that seems odd.

                    So what you would have to imagine is that (1) a Latin word (sikarius) had been Aramaized (no evidence that this Latin word did come over as a loan word in Aramaic -- I did a quick double check of Jastrow and couldn't see anythign quickly, but could stand to be corrected on this), (2) the loan word then went through some phonetic changes -- adding an "is- or ish-" on the front, and dropping a vowel in the middle, and then (3) that this then became the nickname for Judas in such a way that people knew he was really some kind of assassin or wielder of the short curved knife..

                    I dunno. Sounds like the guy hailed from the town of kerioth.


                    Mark A. Matson
                    Milligan College
                    Milligan College, TN
                    http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                    ________________________________________
                    From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht [r_schacht@...]
                    Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:11 PM
                    To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                    At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                    >David:
                    >
                    >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                    >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                    >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                    >
                    >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                    >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                    >buried in the middle of this word...
                    >
                    >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                    >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                    Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                    Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                    Bob Schacht
                    Northern Arizona University


                    >Mark A. Matson
                    >Milligan College, TN
                    >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                  • Gary Greenberg
                    John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                      John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members would publicly be known by the same anti-Roman, and Herod or Pilate wouldn’t crack down. And how likely is it that a member of a family bitterly opposed to collaboration with the Romans would go to the Sadducee collaborators and work out a deal to betray a religious teacher who urges his followers to accept Pharisee teachings (per Matthew.)

                      Gary
                      Gary Greenberg
                      Web site: Bible Myth and History

                      Author of the following books

                      101 Myths of the Bible
                      The Moses Mystery
                      The Judas Brief
                      King David Versus Israel
                      Who Wrote the Gospels?
                      Manetho: A Study in Egyptian Chronology

                      From: Dennis Goffin
                      Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:02 AM
                      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?


                      Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
                      Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
                      To: mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com
                      From: mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk
                      Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
                      Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                      Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

                      (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

                      in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

                      It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

                      with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

                      and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

                      after the demise of Judas.

                      Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

                      the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

                      have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

                      a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

                      or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

                      the discussion.

                      David M.

                      ---------

                      David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

                      --

                      The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

                      Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



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