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Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

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  • Jack Kilmon
    Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid: The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
      Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:

      The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been
      Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not
      be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from
      Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's
      license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,
      Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was
      preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt
      Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA
      collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these
      guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a
      name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing
      Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used
      their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with
      Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs
      (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was
      the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later
      times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,
      which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek
      syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an
      acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)
      I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and
      his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or
      whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to
      them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical
      types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over
      Jesus having siblings.

      I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus
      Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,
      the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.

      Regards,

      Jack

      Jack Kilmon
      Houston, TX

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ronald Price
      Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM
      To: CrossTalk
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

      Dennis and Jack,

      Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual
      thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,
      including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem
      to have been!

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK

      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Dennis Goffin
      Correct me if I m wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
        Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

        ---------------------

        Dennis Goffin

        Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        From: jkilmon@...
        Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
        Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























        Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



        The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

        Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

        be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

        Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

        license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

        Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

        preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

        Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

        collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

        guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

        name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

        Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

        their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

        Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

        (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

        the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

        times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

        which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

        syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

        acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

        I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

        his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

        whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

        them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

        types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

        Jesus having siblings.



        I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

        Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

        the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



        Regards,



        Jack



        Jack Kilmon

        Houston, TX



        -----Original Message-----

        From: Ronald Price

        Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

        To: CrossTalk

        Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



        Dennis and Jack,



        Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

        thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

        including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

        to have been!



        Ron Price,



        Derbyshire, UK



        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Mealand
        Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE. It
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
          Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
          (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
          in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
          It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
          with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
          and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
          after the demise of Judas.

          Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
          the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
          have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
          a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
          or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
          the discussion.

          David M.


          ---------
          David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


          --
          The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
          Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
        • Dennis Goffin
          Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
            Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
            Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            From: D.Mealand@...
            Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
            Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?






























            Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

            (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

            in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

            It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

            with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

            and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

            after the demise of Judas.



            Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

            the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

            have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

            a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

            or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

            the discussion.



            David M.



            ---------

            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh



            --

            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Matson, Mark (Academic)
            David: A quick check of TLG using search string sikar found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
              David:

              A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).

              Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is buried in the middle of this word...

              Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later fathers, and always to mean assassin.

              Mark A. Matson
              Milligan College, TN
              http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
              ________________________________________
              From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
              Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

              Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
              (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
              in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
              It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
              with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
              and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
              after the demise of Judas.

              Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
              the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
              have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
              a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
              or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
              the discussion.

              David M.


              ---------
              David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


              --
              The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
              Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




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            • Bob Schacht
              ... Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious. Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans? Bob Schacht
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
                At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                >David:
                >
                >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                >
                >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                >buried in the middle of this word...
                >
                >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                Bob Schacht
                Northern Arizona University


                >Mark A. Matson
                >Milligan College, TN
                >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                >________________________________________
                >From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
                >Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
                >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
                >To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?
                >
                >Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
                >(sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
                >in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
                >It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
                >with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
                >and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
                >after the demise of Judas.
                >
                >Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
                >the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
                >have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
                >a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
                >or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
                >the discussion.
                >
                >David M.
                >
                >
                >---------
                >David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
                >
                >
                >--
                >The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                >Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------
                >
                >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                >
                >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
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                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >------------------------------------
                >
                >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                >
                >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
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                >
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                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jack Kilmon
                Good Morning, Dennis: Ossuaries were family things and family members would not refer to their fathers, husbands, sons, etc as Dennis from Hertfordshire
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
                  Good Morning, Dennis:
                  Ossuaries were "family things" and family members would not refer to their
                  fathers, husbands, sons, etc as "Dennis from Hertfordshire" or "Jack from
                  Houston." Nicknames were given by family members, hence understandable on
                  ossuaries. Nicknames were also used in social groups to distinguish one
                  Yahosef, Ya'qub, Yeshua, Yehudah or Shymeon (most popular name) from
                  another. One example of an ossuarial inscription giving a location is the
                  "Simon of Cyrene" tomb excavated by Sukenik and Avigad in 1941. The ossuary
                  of Simon's daughter Sara bears the Greek inscription "Sara (of) Simon of
                  Ptolemais" Ptolemais is one of the 5 main cities in Cyrenaica. Other than
                  Caiaphas, this is one of the only ossuaries most probably of a known New
                  Testament figure given the additional evidence of an ossuary in that tomb
                  for Simon's known son, Alexander. I realize cynicism is the current
                  scholarly fad but you can only stretch coincidence so far. There is also a
                  point where you have to appeal to the cultural anthropology of the time and
                  place and nicknames were of family or social group use. I cannot fathom
                  "Jude the guy with a knife" when there is a village called Kirioth just down
                  the road. The Hebrew ISH Kirioth instead of the Aramaic Kirioth-itha
                  suggests to me that it is a designator used by the family for a long time,
                  perhaps some priests in the family...IF, again Judas "Iscariot" was an
                  historical figure.

                  There are so few clues, either archaeological or textual, about the
                  prosopography of the New Testament, including Jesus himself, that we have to
                  sink ourselves into the social and cultural anthropology and languages of
                  the time.

                  Best Regards,
                  Jack

                  Jack Kilmon
                  Houston, TX


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dennis Goffin
                  Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:27 PM
                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS


                  Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about
                  the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
                  patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the
                  Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So
                  what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously
                  advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why
                  Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

                  ---------------------

                  Dennis Goffin

                  Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  From: jkilmon@...
                  Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























                  Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



                  The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

                  Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

                  be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

                  Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

                  license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

                  Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

                  preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

                  Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

                  collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

                  guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

                  name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

                  Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

                  their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

                  Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

                  (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

                  the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

                  times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

                  which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

                  syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

                  acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

                  I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

                  his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

                  whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

                  them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

                  types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

                  Jesus having siblings.



                  I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

                  Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

                  the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



                  Regards,



                  Jack



                  Jack Kilmon

                  Houston, TX



                  -----Original Message-----

                  From: Ronald Price

                  Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

                  To: CrossTalk

                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



                  Dennis and Jack,



                  Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

                  thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

                  including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

                  to have been!



                  Ron Price,



                  Derbyshire, UK



                  http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

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                • Jack Kilmon
                  ... From: Bob Schacht Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ? ... Oh boy. The
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Bob Schacht
                    Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM
                    To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                    At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                    >David:
                    >
                    >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                    >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                    >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                    >
                    >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                    >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                    >buried in the middle of this word...
                    >
                    >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                    >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                    Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                    Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                    Bob Schacht
                    Northern Arizona University


                    Hi Bob:

                    I guess I have made my position as clear on this as I can. As you know,
                    Greek did not have a SH (I wonder how they told someone to hush?) so they
                    used a sigma as they did for Yeshua. We have to guess what the sigma in
                    Ἰσκαριώθ transliterated. Was it a shin or a samekh? If it was a shin, it
                    is a perfect transliteration for "Man from Karioth" but if it’s a sigma for
                    "Sikar" than we have to dance around the flag pole explaining an
                    transposition of the iota and sigma and that’s too much for me. If Karioth
                    wasn't just past the MacDonald's south of Hebron and a right at Walmart's,
                    it would be different but Mr, Ockham is tapping me on the shoulder.

                    Best Regards,

                    Jack
                  • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                    Bob: More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really man from Kerioth as Jack has proposed. One other thing that is worth noting. For
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
                      Bob:

                      More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really "man from Kerioth" as Jack has proposed.

                      One other thing that is worth noting. For Iskariwth to be referring to sicarii we have some phonetic difficulties:

                      1. The unnecessary addition of the "is-" on the front. This is more likely to be a hellenished version of "ish"
                      2. The word "sicarios" has the strong iota between the sigma and the kappa, and that seems hard for me to imagine simply being elided.
                      3. The form "iskariwth" has the long omega, which I guess could be an semitic feminine plural ending, but that seems odd.

                      So what you would have to imagine is that (1) a Latin word (sikarius) had been Aramaized (no evidence that this Latin word did come over as a loan word in Aramaic -- I did a quick double check of Jastrow and couldn't see anythign quickly, but could stand to be corrected on this), (2) the loan word then went through some phonetic changes -- adding an "is- or ish-" on the front, and dropping a vowel in the middle, and then (3) that this then became the nickname for Judas in such a way that people knew he was really some kind of assassin or wielder of the short curved knife..

                      I dunno. Sounds like the guy hailed from the town of kerioth.


                      Mark A. Matson
                      Milligan College
                      Milligan College, TN
                      http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                      ________________________________________
                      From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht [r_schacht@...]
                      Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:11 PM
                      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                      At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                      >David:
                      >
                      >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                      >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                      >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                      >
                      >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                      >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                      >buried in the middle of this word...
                      >
                      >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                      >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                      Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                      Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                      Bob Schacht
                      Northern Arizona University


                      >Mark A. Matson
                      >Milligan College, TN
                      >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                    • Gary Greenberg
                      John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
                        John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members would publicly be known by the same anti-Roman, and Herod or Pilate wouldn’t crack down. And how likely is it that a member of a family bitterly opposed to collaboration with the Romans would go to the Sadducee collaborators and work out a deal to betray a religious teacher who urges his followers to accept Pharisee teachings (per Matthew.)

                        Gary
                        Gary Greenberg
                        Web site: Bible Myth and History

                        Author of the following books

                        101 Myths of the Bible
                        The Moses Mystery
                        The Judas Brief
                        King David Versus Israel
                        Who Wrote the Gospels?
                        Manetho: A Study in Egyptian Chronology

                        From: Dennis Goffin
                        Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:02 AM
                        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?


                        Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
                        Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
                        To: mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com
                        From: mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk
                        Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
                        Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                        Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

                        (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

                        in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

                        It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

                        with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

                        and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

                        after the demise of Judas.

                        Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

                        the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

                        have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

                        a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

                        or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

                        the discussion.

                        David M.

                        ---------

                        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

                        --

                        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

                        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



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