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RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

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  • Dennis Goffin
    Thank you for your note, Jack. If you transliterate Sicarius into Greek, you would get a noun sikarios, sikariot- which merely requires moving the first
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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      Thank you for your note, Jack. If you transliterate Sicarius into Greek, you would get a noun sikarios, sikariot- which merely requires moving the first vowel to get Iscariot. Why would the Gospel writer wish to conceal this identity ? For the same reason that Mark and Matthew talk of Simon the Cananean, not the Zealot. After the Jewish revolt, the early Xians wanted at all costs to appear benign to the Romans, not involved with violence.
      Dennis
      ---------------------

      Dennis Goffin

      Chorleywood UK

      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      From: jkilmon@...
      Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:17:28 -0600
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























      Hi Dennis:



      I have never been convinced that the Ἰσκαριώθ came from the Latin

      Sicarius and I have never been able to make sense of it from a linguistic

      standpoint. Why couldn't Yehudah have simply been a man אִישׁ from Kerioth

      קְרִיּ֔וֹת or ish qyrioth, a town about 10 miles south of Hebron which

      ruins are called el-kureitein? Ish Kerioth transliterates perfectly to

      Greek with did not have SH. I think the Sicarius thing is only due to the

      confusion over Simon the "Canaanite" שׁמעון קנניא because

      of the word for "Zealous" קנא which is too blurry.



      Jack



      Jack Kilmon

      Houston, TX



      -----Original Message-----

      From: Dennis Goffin

      Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:02 AM

      To: gpg@yahoogroups.com ; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com ;

      synoptic@yahoogroups.com

      Subject: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



      It is interesting that amongst the followers of Jesus there was not only

      Simon the Zealot but there was also Judah the Sicarius.

      The Pharisaic movement was a broad church which included not only those who

      were prepared to try to bring in the kingdom of God by force of arms but

      also those, the Sicarii, who were prepared to assassinate those Jews who

      they regarded as collaborators.

      Jesus himself was clearly a Pharisee, since his views regarding the

      afterlife matched theirs entirely. Where he differed however was that he

      belonged rather to the quietistic side of the movement which was happy to

      accept Roman rule as long as the Jews retained religious freedom. This

      attitude however would have been unpopular with the more hotheaded

      nationalistic members of the movement who could not even stomach a half Jew

      as a king, let alone the Romans.

      It is easy to see therefore that if it became a choice for the general

      population between Jesus bar Abbas, a guerilla leader and stalwart patriot

      who had risked his life with his companions fighting the Romans and Jesus of

      Nazareth, the Jews were always going to choose the fighter against the

      pacifist.

      It was no good Jesus preaching that his kingdom was not of this world, a

      popular wonder worker such as he was easily aroused the messianic hopes of

      the multitude, much to the discomfiture of the Jewish establishment. It is

      unsurprising therefore that the Jewish authorities took the opportunity to

      remove him from circulation by passing him over to the Romans for

      condemnation on a charge of sedition. It would seem also that Judah the

      Sicarius became disillusioned with the pacifist approach of Jesus, which is

      why he was prepared to assist the Jewish authorities.

      Dennis

      ---------------------



      Dennis Goffin



      Chorleywood UK



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    • Sid Martin
      Jack,   Are there any other examples in the ancient Jewish world where an individual is identified as the man from somewhere?  Why Hebrew and not
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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        Jack,
         
        Are there any other examples in the ancient Jewish world where an individual is identified as the "man" from somewhere?  Why Hebrew and not Aramaic?  Seems like a strange surname to me.
         
        Sid Martin

        --- On Thu, 2/9/12, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:


        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
        Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS
        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, February 9, 2012, 3:17 AM



         



        Hi Dennis:

        I have never been convinced that the Ἰσκαριώθ came from the Latin
        Sicarius and I have never been able to make sense of it from a linguistic
        standpoint. Why couldn't Yehudah have simply been a man אִישׁ from Kerioth
        קְרִיּ֔וֹת or ish qyrioth, a town about 10 miles south of Hebron which
        ruins are called el-kureitein? Ish Kerioth transliterates perfectly to
        Greek with did not have SH. I think the Sicarius thing is only due to the
        confusion over Simon the "Canaanite" שׁמעון קנניא because
        of the word for "Zealous" קנא which is too blurry.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        Houston, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Dennis Goffin
        Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:02 AM
        To: gpg@yahoogroups.com ; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com ;
        synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

        It is interesting that amongst the followers of Jesus there was not only
        Simon the Zealot but there was also Judah the Sicarius.
        The Pharisaic movement was a broad church which included not only those who
        were prepared to try to bring in the kingdom of God by force of arms but
        also those, the Sicarii, who were prepared to assassinate those Jews who
        they regarded as collaborators.
        Jesus himself was clearly a Pharisee, since his views regarding the
        afterlife matched theirs entirely. Where he differed however was that he
        belonged rather to the quietistic side of the movement which was happy to
        accept Roman rule as long as the Jews retained religious freedom. This
        attitude however would have been unpopular with the more hotheaded
        nationalistic members of the movement who could not even stomach a half Jew
        as a king, let alone the Romans.
        It is easy to see therefore that if it became a choice for the general
        population between Jesus bar Abbas, a guerilla leader and stalwart patriot
        who had risked his life with his companions fighting the Romans and Jesus of
        Nazareth, the Jews were always going to choose the fighter against the
        pacifist.
        It was no good Jesus preaching that his kingdom was not of this world, a
        popular wonder worker such as he was easily aroused the messianic hopes of
        the multitude, much to the discomfiture of the Jewish establishment. It is
        unsurprising therefore that the Jewish authorities took the opportunity to
        remove him from circulation by passing him over to the Romans for
        condemnation on a charge of sedition. It would seem also that Judah the
        Sicarius became disillusioned with the pacifist approach of Jesus, which is
        why he was prepared to assist the Jewish authorities.
        Dennis
        ---------------------

        Dennis Goffin

        Chorleywood UK

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      • Ronald Price
        Dennis and Jack, Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of Iscariot with their usual thoroughness ( Matthew , Vol II, p.157). They mention ten
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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          Dennis and Jack,

          Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual
          thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,
          including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem
          to have been!

          Ron Price,

          Derbyshire, UK

          http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jack Kilmon
          Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid: The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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            Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:

            The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been
            Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not
            be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from
            Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's
            license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,
            Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was
            preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt
            Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA
            collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these
            guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a
            name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing
            Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used
            their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with
            Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs
            (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was
            the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later
            times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,
            which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek
            syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an
            acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)
            I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and
            his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or
            whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to
            them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical
            types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over
            Jesus having siblings.

            I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus
            Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,
            the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.

            Regards,

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
            Houston, TX

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ronald Price
            Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM
            To: CrossTalk
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

            Dennis and Jack,

            Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual
            thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,
            including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem
            to have been!

            Ron Price,

            Derbyshire, UK

            http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Dennis Goffin
            Correct me if I m wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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              Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

              ---------------------

              Dennis Goffin

              Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              From: jkilmon@...
              Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
              Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























              Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



              The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

              Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

              be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

              Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

              license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

              Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

              preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

              Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

              collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

              guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

              name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

              Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

              their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

              Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

              (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

              the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

              times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

              which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

              syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

              acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

              I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

              his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

              whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

              them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

              types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

              Jesus having siblings.



              I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

              Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

              the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



              Regards,



              Jack



              Jack Kilmon

              Houston, TX



              -----Original Message-----

              From: Ronald Price

              Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

              To: CrossTalk

              Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



              Dennis and Jack,



              Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

              thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

              including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

              to have been!



              Ron Price,



              Derbyshire, UK



              http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • David Mealand
              Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE. It
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
                (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
                in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
                It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
                with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
                and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
                after the demise of Judas.

                Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
                the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
                have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
                a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
                or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
                the discussion.

                David M.


                ---------
                David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                --
                The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
              • Dennis Goffin
                Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                  Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
                  Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  From: D.Mealand@...
                  Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
                  Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?






























                  Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

                  (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

                  in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

                  It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

                  with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

                  and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

                  after the demise of Judas.



                  Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

                  the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

                  have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

                  a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

                  or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

                  the discussion.



                  David M.



                  ---------

                  David Mealand, University of Edinburgh



                  --

                  The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

                  Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                  David: A quick check of TLG using search string sikar found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                    David:

                    A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).

                    Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is buried in the middle of this word...

                    Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                    Mark A. Matson
                    Milligan College, TN
                    http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                    ________________________________________
                    From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
                    Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
                    To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                    Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
                    (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
                    in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
                    It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
                    with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
                    and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
                    after the demise of Judas.

                    Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
                    the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
                    have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
                    a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
                    or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
                    the discussion.

                    David M.


                    ---------
                    David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                    --
                    The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                    Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




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                  • Bob Schacht
                    ... Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious. Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans? Bob Schacht
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                      At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                      >David:
                      >
                      >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                      >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                      >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                      >
                      >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                      >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                      >buried in the middle of this word...
                      >
                      >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                      >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                      Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                      Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                      Bob Schacht
                      Northern Arizona University


                      >Mark A. Matson
                      >Milligan College, TN
                      >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                      >________________________________________
                      >From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
                      >Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
                      >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
                      >To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?
                      >
                      >Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
                      >(sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
                      >in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
                      >It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
                      >with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
                      >and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
                      >after the demise of Judas.
                      >
                      >Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
                      >the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
                      >have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
                      >a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
                      >or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
                      >the discussion.
                      >
                      >David M.
                      >
                      >
                      >---------
                      >David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
                      >
                      >
                      >--
                      >The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                      >Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------
                      >
                      >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                      >
                      >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
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                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >------------------------------------
                      >
                      >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                      >
                      >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
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                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jack Kilmon
                      Good Morning, Dennis: Ossuaries were family things and family members would not refer to their fathers, husbands, sons, etc as Dennis from Hertfordshire
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                        Good Morning, Dennis:
                        Ossuaries were "family things" and family members would not refer to their
                        fathers, husbands, sons, etc as "Dennis from Hertfordshire" or "Jack from
                        Houston." Nicknames were given by family members, hence understandable on
                        ossuaries. Nicknames were also used in social groups to distinguish one
                        Yahosef, Ya'qub, Yeshua, Yehudah or Shymeon (most popular name) from
                        another. One example of an ossuarial inscription giving a location is the
                        "Simon of Cyrene" tomb excavated by Sukenik and Avigad in 1941. The ossuary
                        of Simon's daughter Sara bears the Greek inscription "Sara (of) Simon of
                        Ptolemais" Ptolemais is one of the 5 main cities in Cyrenaica. Other than
                        Caiaphas, this is one of the only ossuaries most probably of a known New
                        Testament figure given the additional evidence of an ossuary in that tomb
                        for Simon's known son, Alexander. I realize cynicism is the current
                        scholarly fad but you can only stretch coincidence so far. There is also a
                        point where you have to appeal to the cultural anthropology of the time and
                        place and nicknames were of family or social group use. I cannot fathom
                        "Jude the guy with a knife" when there is a village called Kirioth just down
                        the road. The Hebrew ISH Kirioth instead of the Aramaic Kirioth-itha
                        suggests to me that it is a designator used by the family for a long time,
                        perhaps some priests in the family...IF, again Judas "Iscariot" was an
                        historical figure.

                        There are so few clues, either archaeological or textual, about the
                        prosopography of the New Testament, including Jesus himself, that we have to
                        sink ourselves into the social and cultural anthropology and languages of
                        the time.

                        Best Regards,
                        Jack

                        Jack Kilmon
                        Houston, TX


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Dennis Goffin
                        Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:27 PM
                        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS


                        Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about
                        the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
                        patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the
                        Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So
                        what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously
                        advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why
                        Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

                        ---------------------

                        Dennis Goffin

                        Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        From: jkilmon@...
                        Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
                        Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























                        Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



                        The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

                        Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

                        be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

                        Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

                        license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

                        Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

                        preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

                        Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

                        collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

                        guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

                        name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

                        Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

                        their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

                        Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

                        (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

                        the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

                        times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

                        which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

                        syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

                        acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

                        I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

                        his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

                        whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

                        them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

                        types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

                        Jesus having siblings.



                        I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

                        Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

                        the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



                        Regards,



                        Jack



                        Jack Kilmon

                        Houston, TX



                        -----Original Message-----

                        From: Ronald Price

                        Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

                        To: CrossTalk

                        Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



                        Dennis and Jack,



                        Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

                        thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

                        including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

                        to have been!



                        Ron Price,



                        Derbyshire, UK



                        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



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                      • Jack Kilmon
                        ... From: Bob Schacht Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ? ... Oh boy. The
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Bob Schacht
                          Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM
                          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                          At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                          >David:
                          >
                          >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                          >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                          >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                          >
                          >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                          >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                          >buried in the middle of this word...
                          >
                          >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                          >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                          Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                          Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                          Bob Schacht
                          Northern Arizona University


                          Hi Bob:

                          I guess I have made my position as clear on this as I can. As you know,
                          Greek did not have a SH (I wonder how they told someone to hush?) so they
                          used a sigma as they did for Yeshua. We have to guess what the sigma in
                          Ἰσκαριώθ transliterated. Was it a shin or a samekh? If it was a shin, it
                          is a perfect transliteration for "Man from Karioth" but if it’s a sigma for
                          "Sikar" than we have to dance around the flag pole explaining an
                          transposition of the iota and sigma and that’s too much for me. If Karioth
                          wasn't just past the MacDonald's south of Hebron and a right at Walmart's,
                          it would be different but Mr, Ockham is tapping me on the shoulder.

                          Best Regards,

                          Jack
                        • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                          Bob: More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really man from Kerioth as Jack has proposed. One other thing that is worth noting. For
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                            Bob:

                            More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really "man from Kerioth" as Jack has proposed.

                            One other thing that is worth noting. For Iskariwth to be referring to sicarii we have some phonetic difficulties:

                            1. The unnecessary addition of the "is-" on the front. This is more likely to be a hellenished version of "ish"
                            2. The word "sicarios" has the strong iota between the sigma and the kappa, and that seems hard for me to imagine simply being elided.
                            3. The form "iskariwth" has the long omega, which I guess could be an semitic feminine plural ending, but that seems odd.

                            So what you would have to imagine is that (1) a Latin word (sikarius) had been Aramaized (no evidence that this Latin word did come over as a loan word in Aramaic -- I did a quick double check of Jastrow and couldn't see anythign quickly, but could stand to be corrected on this), (2) the loan word then went through some phonetic changes -- adding an "is- or ish-" on the front, and dropping a vowel in the middle, and then (3) that this then became the nickname for Judas in such a way that people knew he was really some kind of assassin or wielder of the short curved knife..

                            I dunno. Sounds like the guy hailed from the town of kerioth.


                            Mark A. Matson
                            Milligan College
                            Milligan College, TN
                            http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                            ________________________________________
                            From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht [r_schacht@...]
                            Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:11 PM
                            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                            At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                            >David:
                            >
                            >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                            >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                            >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                            >
                            >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                            >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                            >buried in the middle of this word...
                            >
                            >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                            >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                            Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                            Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                            Bob Schacht
                            Northern Arizona University


                            >Mark A. Matson
                            >Milligan College, TN
                            >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                          • Gary Greenberg
                            John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                              John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members would publicly be known by the same anti-Roman, and Herod or Pilate wouldn’t crack down. And how likely is it that a member of a family bitterly opposed to collaboration with the Romans would go to the Sadducee collaborators and work out a deal to betray a religious teacher who urges his followers to accept Pharisee teachings (per Matthew.)

                              Gary
                              Gary Greenberg
                              Web site: Bible Myth and History

                              Author of the following books

                              101 Myths of the Bible
                              The Moses Mystery
                              The Judas Brief
                              King David Versus Israel
                              Who Wrote the Gospels?
                              Manetho: A Study in Egyptian Chronology

                              From: Dennis Goffin
                              Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:02 AM
                              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?


                              Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
                              Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
                              To: mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com
                              From: mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk
                              Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
                              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                              Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

                              (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

                              in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

                              It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

                              with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

                              and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

                              after the demise of Judas.

                              Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

                              the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

                              have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

                              a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

                              or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

                              the discussion.

                              David M.

                              ---------

                              David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

                              --

                              The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

                              Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



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