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JUDAS THE SICARIOS

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  • Dennis Goffin
    It is interesting that amongst the followers of Jesus there was not only Simon the Zealot but there was also Judah the Sicarius. The Pharisaic movement was a
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 8, 2012
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      It is interesting that amongst the followers of Jesus there was not only Simon the Zealot but there was also Judah the Sicarius.
      The Pharisaic movement was a broad church which included not only those who were prepared to try to bring in the kingdom of God by force of arms but also those, the Sicarii, who were prepared to assassinate those Jews who they regarded as collaborators.
      Jesus himself was clearly a Pharisee, since his views regarding the afterlife matched theirs entirely. Where he differed however was that he belonged rather to the quietistic side of the movement which was happy to accept Roman rule as long as the Jews retained religious freedom. This attitude however would have been unpopular with the more hotheaded nationalistic members of the movement who could not even stomach a half Jew as a king, let alone the Romans.
      It is easy to see therefore that if it became a choice for the general population between Jesus bar Abbas, a guerilla leader and stalwart patriot who had risked his life with his companions fighting the Romans and Jesus of Nazareth, the Jews were always going to choose the fighter against the pacifist.
      It was no good Jesus preaching that his kingdom was not of this world, a popular wonder worker such as he was easily aroused the messianic hopes of the multitude, much to the discomfiture of the Jewish establishment. It is unsurprising therefore that the Jewish authorities took the opportunity to remove him from circulation by passing him over to the Romans for condemnation on a charge of sedition. It would seem also that Judah the Sicarius became disillusioned with the pacifist approach of Jesus, which is why he was prepared to assist the Jewish authorities.
      Dennis
      ---------------------

      Dennis Goffin

      Chorleywood UK




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Kilmon
      Hi Dennis: I have never been convinced that the Ἰσκαριώθ came from the Latin Sicarius and I have never been able to make sense of it from a
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 8, 2012
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        Hi Dennis:

        I have never been convinced that the Ἰσκαριώθ came from the Latin
        Sicarius and I have never been able to make sense of it from a linguistic
        standpoint. Why couldn't Yehudah have simply been a man אִישׁ from Kerioth
        קְרִיּ֔וֹת or ish qyrioth, a town about 10 miles south of Hebron which
        ruins are called el-kureitein? Ish Kerioth transliterates perfectly to
        Greek with did not have SH. I think the Sicarius thing is only due to the
        confusion over Simon the "Canaanite" שׁמעון קנניא because
        of the word for "Zealous" קנא which is too blurry.

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        Houston, TX

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Dennis Goffin
        Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:02 AM
        To: gpg@yahoogroups.com ; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com ;
        synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS





        It is interesting that amongst the followers of Jesus there was not only
        Simon the Zealot but there was also Judah the Sicarius.
        The Pharisaic movement was a broad church which included not only those who
        were prepared to try to bring in the kingdom of God by force of arms but
        also those, the Sicarii, who were prepared to assassinate those Jews who
        they regarded as collaborators.
        Jesus himself was clearly a Pharisee, since his views regarding the
        afterlife matched theirs entirely. Where he differed however was that he
        belonged rather to the quietistic side of the movement which was happy to
        accept Roman rule as long as the Jews retained religious freedom. This
        attitude however would have been unpopular with the more hotheaded
        nationalistic members of the movement who could not even stomach a half Jew
        as a king, let alone the Romans.
        It is easy to see therefore that if it became a choice for the general
        population between Jesus bar Abbas, a guerilla leader and stalwart patriot
        who had risked his life with his companions fighting the Romans and Jesus of
        Nazareth, the Jews were always going to choose the fighter against the
        pacifist.
        It was no good Jesus preaching that his kingdom was not of this world, a
        popular wonder worker such as he was easily aroused the messianic hopes of
        the multitude, much to the discomfiture of the Jewish establishment. It is
        unsurprising therefore that the Jewish authorities took the opportunity to
        remove him from circulation by passing him over to the Romans for
        condemnation on a charge of sedition. It would seem also that Judah the
        Sicarius became disillusioned with the pacifist approach of Jesus, which is
        why he was prepared to assist the Jewish authorities.
        Dennis
        ---------------------

        Dennis Goffin

        Chorleywood UK




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Dennis Goffin
        Thank you for your note, Jack. If you transliterate Sicarius into Greek, you would get a noun sikarios, sikariot- which merely requires moving the first
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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          Thank you for your note, Jack. If you transliterate Sicarius into Greek, you would get a noun sikarios, sikariot- which merely requires moving the first vowel to get Iscariot. Why would the Gospel writer wish to conceal this identity ? For the same reason that Mark and Matthew talk of Simon the Cananean, not the Zealot. After the Jewish revolt, the early Xians wanted at all costs to appear benign to the Romans, not involved with violence.
          Dennis
          ---------------------

          Dennis Goffin

          Chorleywood UK

          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          From: jkilmon@...
          Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:17:28 -0600
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























          Hi Dennis:



          I have never been convinced that the Ἰσκαριώθ came from the Latin

          Sicarius and I have never been able to make sense of it from a linguistic

          standpoint. Why couldn't Yehudah have simply been a man אִישׁ from Kerioth

          קְרִיּ֔וֹת or ish qyrioth, a town about 10 miles south of Hebron which

          ruins are called el-kureitein? Ish Kerioth transliterates perfectly to

          Greek with did not have SH. I think the Sicarius thing is only due to the

          confusion over Simon the "Canaanite" שׁמעון קנניא because

          of the word for "Zealous" קנא which is too blurry.



          Jack



          Jack Kilmon

          Houston, TX



          -----Original Message-----

          From: Dennis Goffin

          Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:02 AM

          To: gpg@yahoogroups.com ; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com ;

          synoptic@yahoogroups.com

          Subject: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



          It is interesting that amongst the followers of Jesus there was not only

          Simon the Zealot but there was also Judah the Sicarius.

          The Pharisaic movement was a broad church which included not only those who

          were prepared to try to bring in the kingdom of God by force of arms but

          also those, the Sicarii, who were prepared to assassinate those Jews who

          they regarded as collaborators.

          Jesus himself was clearly a Pharisee, since his views regarding the

          afterlife matched theirs entirely. Where he differed however was that he

          belonged rather to the quietistic side of the movement which was happy to

          accept Roman rule as long as the Jews retained religious freedom. This

          attitude however would have been unpopular with the more hotheaded

          nationalistic members of the movement who could not even stomach a half Jew

          as a king, let alone the Romans.

          It is easy to see therefore that if it became a choice for the general

          population between Jesus bar Abbas, a guerilla leader and stalwart patriot

          who had risked his life with his companions fighting the Romans and Jesus of

          Nazareth, the Jews were always going to choose the fighter against the

          pacifist.

          It was no good Jesus preaching that his kingdom was not of this world, a

          popular wonder worker such as he was easily aroused the messianic hopes of

          the multitude, much to the discomfiture of the Jewish establishment. It is

          unsurprising therefore that the Jewish authorities took the opportunity to

          remove him from circulation by passing him over to the Romans for

          condemnation on a charge of sedition. It would seem also that Judah the

          Sicarius became disillusioned with the pacifist approach of Jesus, which is

          why he was prepared to assist the Jewish authorities.

          Dennis

          ---------------------



          Dennis Goffin



          Chorleywood UK



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Sid Martin
          Jack,   Are there any other examples in the ancient Jewish world where an individual is identified as the man from somewhere?  Why Hebrew and not
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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            Jack,
             
            Are there any other examples in the ancient Jewish world where an individual is identified as the "man" from somewhere?  Why Hebrew and not Aramaic?  Seems like a strange surname to me.
             
            Sid Martin

            --- On Thu, 2/9/12, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:


            From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, February 9, 2012, 3:17 AM



             



            Hi Dennis:

            I have never been convinced that the Ἰσκαριώθ came from the Latin
            Sicarius and I have never been able to make sense of it from a linguistic
            standpoint. Why couldn't Yehudah have simply been a man אִישׁ from Kerioth
            קְרִיּ֔וֹת or ish qyrioth, a town about 10 miles south of Hebron which
            ruins are called el-kureitein? Ish Kerioth transliterates perfectly to
            Greek with did not have SH. I think the Sicarius thing is only due to the
            confusion over Simon the "Canaanite" שׁמעון קנניא because
            of the word for "Zealous" קנא which is too blurry.

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
            Houston, TX

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dennis Goffin
            Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:02 AM
            To: gpg@yahoogroups.com ; crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com ;
            synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

            It is interesting that amongst the followers of Jesus there was not only
            Simon the Zealot but there was also Judah the Sicarius.
            The Pharisaic movement was a broad church which included not only those who
            were prepared to try to bring in the kingdom of God by force of arms but
            also those, the Sicarii, who were prepared to assassinate those Jews who
            they regarded as collaborators.
            Jesus himself was clearly a Pharisee, since his views regarding the
            afterlife matched theirs entirely. Where he differed however was that he
            belonged rather to the quietistic side of the movement which was happy to
            accept Roman rule as long as the Jews retained religious freedom. This
            attitude however would have been unpopular with the more hotheaded
            nationalistic members of the movement who could not even stomach a half Jew
            as a king, let alone the Romans.
            It is easy to see therefore that if it became a choice for the general
            population between Jesus bar Abbas, a guerilla leader and stalwart patriot
            who had risked his life with his companions fighting the Romans and Jesus of
            Nazareth, the Jews were always going to choose the fighter against the
            pacifist.
            It was no good Jesus preaching that his kingdom was not of this world, a
            popular wonder worker such as he was easily aroused the messianic hopes of
            the multitude, much to the discomfiture of the Jewish establishment. It is
            unsurprising therefore that the Jewish authorities took the opportunity to
            remove him from circulation by passing him over to the Romans for
            condemnation on a charge of sedition. It would seem also that Judah the
            Sicarius became disillusioned with the pacifist approach of Jesus, which is
            why he was prepared to assist the Jewish authorities.
            Dennis
            ---------------------

            Dennis Goffin

            Chorleywood UK

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ronald Price
            Dennis and Jack, Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of Iscariot with their usual thoroughness ( Matthew , Vol II, p.157). They mention ten
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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              Dennis and Jack,

              Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual
              thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,
              including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem
              to have been!

              Ron Price,

              Derbyshire, UK

              http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jack Kilmon
              Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid: The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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                Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:

                The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been
                Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not
                be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from
                Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's
                license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,
                Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was
                preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt
                Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA
                collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these
                guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a
                name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing
                Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used
                their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with
                Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs
                (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was
                the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later
                times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,
                which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek
                syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an
                acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)
                I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and
                his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or
                whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to
                them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical
                types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over
                Jesus having siblings.

                I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus
                Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,
                the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.

                Regards,

                Jack

                Jack Kilmon
                Houston, TX

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Ronald Price
                Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM
                To: CrossTalk
                Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

                Dennis and Jack,

                Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual
                thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,
                including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem
                to have been!

                Ron Price,

                Derbyshire, UK

                http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Dennis Goffin
                Correct me if I m wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 9, 2012
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                  Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

                  ---------------------

                  Dennis Goffin

                  Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  From: jkilmon@...
                  Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























                  Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



                  The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

                  Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

                  be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

                  Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

                  license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

                  Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

                  preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

                  Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

                  collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

                  guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

                  name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

                  Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

                  their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

                  Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

                  (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

                  the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

                  times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

                  which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

                  syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

                  acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

                  I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

                  his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

                  whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

                  them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

                  types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

                  Jesus having siblings.



                  I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

                  Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

                  the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



                  Regards,



                  Jack



                  Jack Kilmon

                  Houston, TX



                  -----Original Message-----

                  From: Ronald Price

                  Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

                  To: CrossTalk

                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



                  Dennis and Jack,



                  Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

                  thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

                  including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

                  to have been!



                  Ron Price,



                  Derbyshire, UK



                  http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Mealand
                  Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE. It
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                    Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
                    (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
                    in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
                    It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
                    with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
                    and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
                    after the demise of Judas.

                    Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
                    the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
                    have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
                    a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
                    or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
                    the discussion.

                    David M.


                    ---------
                    David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                    --
                    The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                    Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                  • Dennis Goffin
                    Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                      Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
                      Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
                      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                      From: D.Mealand@...
                      Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
                      Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?






























                      Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

                      (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

                      in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

                      It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

                      with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

                      and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

                      after the demise of Judas.



                      Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

                      the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

                      have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

                      a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

                      or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

                      the discussion.



                      David M.



                      ---------

                      David Mealand, University of Edinburgh



                      --

                      The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

                      Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                      David: A quick check of TLG using search string sikar found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                        David:

                        A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).

                        Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is buried in the middle of this word...

                        Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                        Mark A. Matson
                        Milligan College, TN
                        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                        ________________________________________
                        From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
                        Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
                        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                        Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
                        (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
                        in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
                        It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
                        with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
                        and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
                        after the demise of Judas.

                        Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
                        the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
                        have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
                        a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
                        or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
                        the discussion.

                        David M.


                        ---------
                        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                        --
                        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.




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                      • Bob Schacht
                        ... Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious. Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans? Bob Schacht
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                          At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                          >David:
                          >
                          >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                          >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                          >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                          >
                          >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                          >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                          >buried in the middle of this word...
                          >
                          >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                          >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                          Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                          Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                          Bob Schacht
                          Northern Arizona University


                          >Mark A. Matson
                          >Milligan College, TN
                          >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                          >________________________________________
                          >From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
                          >Behalf Of David Mealand [D.Mealand@...]
                          >Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:37 AM
                          >To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?
                          >
                          >Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin
                          >(sica being a curved dagger). The term was used
                          >in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.
                          >It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus
                          >with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix
                          >and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so
                          >after the demise of Judas.
                          >
                          >Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of
                          >the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone
                          >have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be
                          >a relevant piece of evidence which might either support
                          >or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind
                          >the discussion.
                          >
                          >David M.
                          >
                          >
                          >---------
                          >David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
                          >
                          >
                          >--
                          >The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                          >Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                          >
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                        • Jack Kilmon
                          Good Morning, Dennis: Ossuaries were family things and family members would not refer to their fathers, husbands, sons, etc as Dennis from Hertfordshire
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                            Good Morning, Dennis:
                            Ossuaries were "family things" and family members would not refer to their
                            fathers, husbands, sons, etc as "Dennis from Hertfordshire" or "Jack from
                            Houston." Nicknames were given by family members, hence understandable on
                            ossuaries. Nicknames were also used in social groups to distinguish one
                            Yahosef, Ya'qub, Yeshua, Yehudah or Shymeon (most popular name) from
                            another. One example of an ossuarial inscription giving a location is the
                            "Simon of Cyrene" tomb excavated by Sukenik and Avigad in 1941. The ossuary
                            of Simon's daughter Sara bears the Greek inscription "Sara (of) Simon of
                            Ptolemais" Ptolemais is one of the 5 main cities in Cyrenaica. Other than
                            Caiaphas, this is one of the only ossuaries most probably of a known New
                            Testament figure given the additional evidence of an ossuary in that tomb
                            for Simon's known son, Alexander. I realize cynicism is the current
                            scholarly fad but you can only stretch coincidence so far. There is also a
                            point where you have to appeal to the cultural anthropology of the time and
                            place and nicknames were of family or social group use. I cannot fathom
                            "Jude the guy with a knife" when there is a village called Kirioth just down
                            the road. The Hebrew ISH Kirioth instead of the Aramaic Kirioth-itha
                            suggests to me that it is a designator used by the family for a long time,
                            perhaps some priests in the family...IF, again Judas "Iscariot" was an
                            historical figure.

                            There are so few clues, either archaeological or textual, about the
                            prosopography of the New Testament, including Jesus himself, that we have to
                            sink ourselves into the social and cultural anthropology and languages of
                            the time.

                            Best Regards,
                            Jack

                            Jack Kilmon
                            Houston, TX


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Dennis Goffin
                            Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:27 PM
                            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS


                            Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about
                            the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
                            patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the
                            Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So
                            what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously
                            advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why
                            Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

                            ---------------------

                            Dennis Goffin

                            Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                            From: jkilmon@...
                            Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
                            Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























                            Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



                            The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

                            Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

                            be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

                            Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

                            license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

                            Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

                            preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

                            Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

                            collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

                            guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

                            name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

                            Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

                            their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

                            Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

                            (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

                            the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

                            times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

                            which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

                            syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

                            acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

                            I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

                            his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

                            whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

                            them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

                            types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

                            Jesus having siblings.



                            I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

                            Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

                            the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



                            Regards,



                            Jack



                            Jack Kilmon

                            Houston, TX



                            -----Original Message-----

                            From: Ronald Price

                            Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

                            To: CrossTalk

                            Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



                            Dennis and Jack,



                            Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

                            thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

                            including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

                            to have been!



                            Ron Price,



                            Derbyshire, UK



                            http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



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                          • Jack Kilmon
                            ... From: Bob Schacht Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ? ... Oh boy. The
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Bob Schacht
                              Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:11 AM
                              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                              At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                              >David:
                              >
                              >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                              >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                              >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                              >
                              >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                              >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                              >buried in the middle of this word...
                              >
                              >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                              >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                              Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                              Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                              Bob Schacht
                              Northern Arizona University


                              Hi Bob:

                              I guess I have made my position as clear on this as I can. As you know,
                              Greek did not have a SH (I wonder how they told someone to hush?) so they
                              used a sigma as they did for Yeshua. We have to guess what the sigma in
                              Ἰσκαριώθ transliterated. Was it a shin or a samekh? If it was a shin, it
                              is a perfect transliteration for "Man from Karioth" but if it’s a sigma for
                              "Sikar" than we have to dance around the flag pole explaining an
                              transposition of the iota and sigma and that’s too much for me. If Karioth
                              wasn't just past the MacDonald's south of Hebron and a right at Walmart's,
                              it would be different but Mr, Ockham is tapping me on the shoulder.

                              Best Regards,

                              Jack
                            • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                              Bob: More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really man from Kerioth as Jack has proposed. One other thing that is worth noting. For
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                                Bob:

                                More likely this points to the fact that the meaning is really "man from Kerioth" as Jack has proposed.

                                One other thing that is worth noting. For Iskariwth to be referring to sicarii we have some phonetic difficulties:

                                1. The unnecessary addition of the "is-" on the front. This is more likely to be a hellenished version of "ish"
                                2. The word "sicarios" has the strong iota between the sigma and the kappa, and that seems hard for me to imagine simply being elided.
                                3. The form "iskariwth" has the long omega, which I guess could be an semitic feminine plural ending, but that seems odd.

                                So what you would have to imagine is that (1) a Latin word (sikarius) had been Aramaized (no evidence that this Latin word did come over as a loan word in Aramaic -- I did a quick double check of Jastrow and couldn't see anythign quickly, but could stand to be corrected on this), (2) the loan word then went through some phonetic changes -- adding an "is- or ish-" on the front, and dropping a vowel in the middle, and then (3) that this then became the nickname for Judas in such a way that people knew he was really some kind of assassin or wielder of the short curved knife..

                                I dunno. Sounds like the guy hailed from the town of kerioth.


                                Mark A. Matson
                                Milligan College
                                Milligan College, TN
                                http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                                ________________________________________
                                From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Schacht [r_schacht@...]
                                Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:11 PM
                                To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                                At 09:16 AM 2/10/2012, Matson, Mark (Academic) wrote:
                                >David:
                                >
                                >A quick check of TLG using search string "sikar" found extensive use
                                >by Josephus (AJ and BJ), and then Acts 21:38, and then by church
                                >historians and fathers (Eusebius, Origen, Chrysostom, etc...).
                                >
                                >Earlier than Josephus (and after in secular Greek authors) the
                                >string returned primarily wlesikarpos.... where the search string is
                                >buried in the middle of this word...
                                >
                                >Doesn't appear to have been much used outside of Josephus and later
                                >fathers, and always to mean assassin.

                                Oh boy. The implications of that information are pretty serious.
                                Judas the Assassin? Maybe he did more than turn Jesus over to the Romans?

                                Bob Schacht
                                Northern Arizona University


                                >Mark A. Matson
                                >Milligan College, TN
                                >http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                              • Gary Greenberg
                                John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 10, 2012
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                                  John indicates that Iscariot was a family name of some sort and that Judas’ father Simon was also an Iscariot. It seems unlikely that multiple family members would publicly be known by the same anti-Roman, and Herod or Pilate wouldn’t crack down. And how likely is it that a member of a family bitterly opposed to collaboration with the Romans would go to the Sadducee collaborators and work out a deal to betray a religious teacher who urges his followers to accept Pharisee teachings (per Matthew.)

                                  Gary
                                  Gary Greenberg
                                  Web site: Bible Myth and History

                                  Author of the following books

                                  101 Myths of the Bible
                                  The Moses Mystery
                                  The Judas Brief
                                  King David Versus Israel
                                  Who Wrote the Gospels?
                                  Manetho: A Study in Egyptian Chronology

                                  From: Dennis Goffin
                                  Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 10:02 AM
                                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?


                                  Thanks to David, we have established that sicarius does exist in transliterated Greek form from the time of Acts and the writings of Josephus, which I would judge to be approximately contemporary. Greek, however was not the earliest language in which anecdotes of Jesus and his followers were told. I submit therefore that it is unnecessary to require proof of the Greek word's existence at the time of Jesus. Peter's nickname Cephas was after all Aramaic. All that is rquired is to be able to accept that Judah's nickname in Aramaic, among his companions was something like "the blade" for this to be taken over into earlier accounts which finally were subsumed into the Gospels we have. The desire not to upset the Romans, as in the case of "zealot" would have been sufficient motive for the subsequent obfuscation.
                                  Dennis--------------------Dennis GoffinChorleywood UK
                                  To: mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com
                                  From: mailto:D.Mealand%40ed.ac.uk
                                  Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:37:59 +0000
                                  Subject: RE: [XTalk] Judas and the sicarii ?

                                  Sicarius was used in latin to refer to an assassin

                                  (sica being a curved dagger). The term was used

                                  in latin at least as early as Cicero, so 1st C BCE.

                                  It appears in Greek in Acts 21.38 and in Josephus

                                  with reference to the troubles in the time of Felix

                                  and Festus i.e. after 52 CE, around 20 years or so

                                  after the demise of Judas.

                                  Does anyone have to hand the earliest instance of

                                  the use of this latin loan word in Greek? Does someone

                                  have a pre-Neronian example? That would seem to be

                                  a relevant piece of evidence which might either support

                                  or tend to disconfirm some of the assumptions behind

                                  the discussion.

                                  David M.

                                  ---------

                                  David Mealand, University of Edinburgh

                                  --

                                  The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

                                  Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



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