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Goffin RE: Price Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... I think they were confused and divided in understanding his significance. There were followers who thought he was God incarnate, and others who thought he
    Message 1 of 73 , Dec 9, 2011
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      At 09:59 AM 12/9/2011, Dennis Goffin wrote:

      >What then, Bob, did first generation followers of Jesus make of his
      >significance and why?Dennis

      I think they were confused and divided in understanding his
      significance. There were followers who thought he was God incarnate,
      and others who thought he was an ordinary human being. Numerous books
      have been written trying to answer this question, most of them with
      titles in the format "Jesus the ____________", with prophet, healer,
      teacher, etc. etc. filling in the blank. We see this diversity in the
      early groups such as Nazoreans, Ebionites, Gnostics, etc. A little
      bit later, we see it in Irenaus' attacks on heretics (implying that
      some followers of Jesus belonged to diverse groups significant enough
      to attract his ire), and in the Marcionites. We see it in the
      differences between Paul and James et al., and in the parties
      mentioned by Paul in First Corinthians 1. These differences
      continued, IMHO, until the Ecumenical Councils, during which a
      consensus about the significance of Jesus (with a bit of
      "encouragement" from Constantine) was finally hammered out.

      Bob

      >---------------------
      >
      >Dennis Goffin
      >
      >Chorleywood UK To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      >From: r_schacht@...
      >Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 09:11:30 -0700
      >Subject: Price Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT
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      > At 12:59 PM 12/8/2011, Ronald Price wrote:
      >
      > >Dennis Goffin wrote:
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      > >
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      > > > You say "Jesus was recognized as the Jewish Messiah." What in
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      > > your view were
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      > > > the reasons why, and to what in the Hebrew Bible and/or the
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      > > intertestamental
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      > > > literature did he correspond in order to enable that recognition ?
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      > >Dennis,
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      > >It's a good question, but I don't yet have a clear view of what
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      > >first-century Jews would have thought of the role of the Messiah, nor of the
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      > >specific sources on which their views would have been based. It's really a
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      > >question for someone who knows ancient Judaism much better than I do.
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      > >That said, I have today borrowed a library book which may have the answer.
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      > >It is "How Jesus became Christian", by a Canadian Professor of Humanities
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      > >and Religious Studies, Barrie Wilson. He writes that the clearest exposition
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      > >of the idea is to be found in the Psalms of Solomon. The Messiah must
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      > >overthrow foreign rule, establish an independent Jewish state, be a Davidic
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      > >king, and usher in universal peace, establishing the kingdom of God.
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      >Ron,
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      >It strikes me that the very concept of your treasured book is
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      >misplaced. I would not have even opened that book. The question in
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      >the title seems to me preposterous on its face: How could Jesus
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      >become something that did not yet exist? Furthermore, in your
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      >explication of the book, you seem to be interested in a different
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      >question than the one suggested by the title of the book: your focus
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      >is on how Jesus became the Messiah, rather than how he became a
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      >Christian. It seems to me that if Jesus had any concept of being the
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      >Messiah, it was his intention to be a Jewish messiah.
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      >Whether he intended to be a Jewish messiah, ISTM, is not well
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      >established. An intention to gather the lost sheep of Israel points
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      >to a prophetic calling, not necessarily a messiahship.
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      >I view the whole messiah issue as one that mainly concerned second
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      >generation followers of Jesus as they sought to understand the
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      >meaning of his life, death, and resurrection. It was an
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      >interpretation that grew among people who searched their holy
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      >writings to understand what had happened. It may even have been a
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      >rationalization by the followers of Jesus.
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      >Bob Schacht
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      >Northern Arizona University
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    • David Mealand
      This topic ran for a while back in January. I have just seen a review of a book on Philo which gives particular attention to Philo s use of some passages from
      Message 73 of 73 , Feb 16, 2012
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        This topic ran for a while back in January.

        I have just seen a review of a book on Philo
        which gives particular attention to Philo's
        use of some passages from the haftarot which, it is
        argued, match part of a later cycle of such readings.
        Naomi Cohen, Philo's Scriptures ... (Brill 2007) is
        the book, and a very interesting and detailed review
        of it by Tzvee Zahavy is in Review of Rabbinic
        Judaism 15 (2012) 133-136.

        David M.







        ---------
        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


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        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
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