Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Price
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT
..... If you date 4G to 105 CE you are claiming p52 an autograph or 1st
generation copy. I place P52's paleographic mean at 117 CE. I claim, after
many years of work and study, canonical 4G was written in the latter rule of
Domitian (95ish CE) in Greek but using as a template (much as Matthew and
Luke used Mark) an early Aramaic narrative in translational Greek. This
"proto-John" is still embedded in the larger Greek opus. Proto-John
pre-dated Mark and as early as the 40's CE.
My investigations indicate that John had no contemporary written sources
other than the synoptic gospels. I observe that the popular early date for
p52 has been challenged by A.Schmidt (see Schnelle's NT introduction, p.477,
n.119), who dates it at 170 CE +- 25 years. See also the following article
JK] Good Morning, Ron. Even at that paleographic date, which I dispute, P52
would be 2nd generation copy. I hold to my dating mentioned above and with
the composition of Greek John in the reign of Domitian, it is still an early
Of course the author had written sources, one of which was the Semeia Source
and those blocks that are translational Greek strongly suggests the Aramaic
pre-Gospel I mentioned.
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John Mark (if he was the
author) would never had "dissed" Ya'qub haTsaddiqa because he WAS Jesus'
brother as well as having been one of the more revered pious men of the
It seems you're not a fan of the story of Robin Hood, which features a good
king and his treacherous brother. ;-(
Of course it's largely mythical, but its characterization of brothers at
loggerheads, where one is loved and the other hated, is surely quite
JK] Sure, I love medieval novels. After all, television was VERY expensive
in the 12th century. I guess it is possible that brother Jimmy stepped in
after the crucifixion to "rehabilitate" his Enochian brother back to the
Mosaic fold. After all, Paul was busy inventing his own Jesus. I have no
doubt that "factions" evolved from the original "band of men" which created
tensions between the James camp, Kefa Camp, and Pauline camp and in the next
generation the Markan camp and Johannine camp. In fact, I think it very
possible Chapter 21 of the Greek John was taken from the ending of Mark and
appended to John in an attempt to harmonize this tension.
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I NEVER rely on the
Greek for a narrative or a saying of Jesus that was originally rendered, or
written, in Judean Aramaic.
Very laudable. However this principle cannot be applicable when
investigating possible confusion within the Greek tradition, as I was trying
I agree that the Greek tradition, which is 99% of what we have (on the
surface anyway) is a chaotic patchwork of confusion. This is the very
reason for my decades of attention to Aramaic source criticism.
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....unless or until I get to the UK again and you can put
on the coffee and clear your schedule.
If you do, then be assured that coffee is available in our bungalow, and my
schedule is very flexible!
JK] That would be fantastic. I have a number of ancestors resting in
Derbyshire, including one Henry de Ferrers as the earliest and my
grandfather's family as the latest.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- This topic ran for a while back in January.
I have just seen a review of a book on Philo
which gives particular attention to Philo's
use of some passages from the haftarot which, it is
argued, match part of a later cycle of such readings.
Naomi Cohen, Philo's Scriptures ... (Brill 2007) is
the book, and a very interesting and detailed review
of it by Tzvee Zahavy is in Review of Rabbinic
Judaism 15 (2012) 133-136.
David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
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