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Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Ronald Price Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:39 AM To: CrossTalk Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT JK: -- ..... If you date 4G
    Message 1 of 73 , Dec 5, 2011
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ronald Price
      Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 8:39 AM
      To: CrossTalk
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT

      JK: -->
      ..... If you date 4G to 105 CE you are claiming p52 an autograph or 1st
      generation copy. I place P52's paleographic mean at 117 CE. I claim, after
      many years of work and study, canonical 4G was written in the latter rule of
      Domitian (95ish CE) in Greek but using as a template (much as Matthew and
      Luke used Mark) an early Aramaic narrative in translational Greek. This
      "proto-John" is still embedded in the larger Greek opus. Proto-John
      pre-dated Mark and as early as the 40's CE.

      RP: -->
      My investigations indicate that John had no contemporary written sources
      other than the synoptic gospels. I observe that the popular early date for
      p52 has been challenged by A.Schmidt (see Schnelle's NT introduction, p.477,
      n.119), who dates it at 170 CE +- 25 years. See also the following article
      in Wikipedia:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52

      JK] Good Morning, Ron. Even at that paleographic date, which I dispute, P52
      would be 2nd generation copy. I hold to my dating mentioned above and with
      the composition of Greek John in the reign of Domitian, it is still an early
      generation.
      Of course the author had written sources, one of which was the Semeia Source
      and those blocks that are translational Greek strongly suggests the Aramaic
      pre-Gospel I mentioned.

      - - - - - - - - - -

      JK: -->
      John Mark (if he was the
      author) would never had "dissed" Ya'qub haTsaddiqa because he WAS Jesus'
      brother as well as having been one of the more revered pious men of the
      time .....

      RP: -->
      It seems you're not a fan of the story of Robin Hood, which features a good
      king and his treacherous brother. ;-(
      Of course it's largely mythical, but its characterization of brothers at
      loggerheads, where one is loved and the other hated, is surely quite
      plausible.

      JK] Sure, I love medieval novels. After all, television was VERY expensive
      in the 12th century. I guess it is possible that brother Jimmy stepped in
      after the crucifixion to "rehabilitate" his Enochian brother back to the
      Mosaic fold. After all, Paul was busy inventing his own Jesus. I have no
      doubt that "factions" evolved from the original "band of men" which created
      tensions between the James camp, Kefa Camp, and Pauline camp and in the next
      generation the Markan camp and Johannine camp. In fact, I think it very
      possible Chapter 21 of the Greek John was taken from the ending of Mark and
      appended to John in an attempt to harmonize this tension.
      - - - - - - - - - -

      JK: -->
      I NEVER rely on the
      Greek for a narrative or a saying of Jesus that was originally rendered, or
      written, in Judean Aramaic.

      RP: -->
      Very laudable. However this principle cannot be applicable when
      investigating possible confusion within the Greek tradition, as I was trying
      to do.

      I agree that the Greek tradition, which is 99% of what we have (on the
      surface anyway) is a chaotic patchwork of confusion. This is the very
      reason for my decades of attention to Aramaic source criticism.

      - - - - - - - - - -

      JK: -->
      ....unless or until I get to the UK again and you can put
      on the coffee and clear your schedule.

      RP: -->

      If you do, then be assured that coffee is available in our bungalow, and my
      schedule is very flexible!

      JK] That would be fantastic. I have a number of ancestors resting in
      Derbyshire, including one Henry de Ferrers as the earliest and my
      grandfather's family as the latest.

      Best Regards,

      Jack

      Jack Kilmon
      Houston, TX

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK

      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/



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    • David Mealand
      This topic ran for a while back in January. I have just seen a review of a book on Philo which gives particular attention to Philo s use of some passages from
      Message 73 of 73 , Feb 16, 2012
        This topic ran for a while back in January.

        I have just seen a review of a book on Philo
        which gives particular attention to Philo's
        use of some passages from the haftarot which, it is
        argued, match part of a later cycle of such readings.
        Naomi Cohen, Philo's Scriptures ... (Brill 2007) is
        the book, and a very interesting and detailed review
        of it by Tzvee Zahavy is in Review of Rabbinic
        Judaism 15 (2012) 133-136.

        David M.







        ---------
        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


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        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
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