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Re: [XTalk] The Jesus movement before the NT

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  • Ronald Price
    In response to Jack KilmonĀ¹s post of 28 Nov: Jack, JK: - - ..... The top two most common second temple names were Shymeon and Ya aqub so it is not
    Message 1 of 73 , Nov 29, 2011
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      In response to Jack KilmonĀ¹s post of 28 Nov:

      Jack,

      JK: - - >
      ..... The top two most common second temple names were Shymeon and Ya'aqub
      so it is not surprising we have THREE Ya'aqubs in this Galilean family.....

      RP: - - >
      I presume you are here including two from the genealogy in Matthew. But
      surely this can't be trusted. It has many differences from the genealogy in
      Luke. Anyway, Matthew was writing about 60 years after the death of Jesus,
      and it's very difficult to see how he could have obtained such detailed data
      about a long-deceased rabbi's ancestry.

      JK: - - >
      The "Matthias" (Mattaya) of Acts was elected by the qehal of talmidda to
      replace Yehudah Ish-Kerioth after the crucifixion and could not have been
      Mattaya Bar Halfy (Matthew), the tax collector, cousin and disciple for
      three years prior to the crucifixion.

      RP: - - >
      My claim did not necessarily imply such an equation. All it implied was that
      it would only have required a very minor confusion somewhere along the line
      for the Matthew in Papias' statement: "Matthew arranged in order the sayings
      ..." to have been identical to the Matthias behind the somewhat distorted
      account of Ac 1:21-26.

      JK: - - >
      I don't think Luke writing near
      the end of the 1st century could be "correcting" anything

      RP: - - >
      Well it's clear to me that Luke knew there was an inconsistency regarding
      the early status of James. As he claimed to have done a thorough
      investigation (Lk 1:3), he was probably able to confirm the early leadership
      of James. Even if he couldn't be sure, this scholarly writer would almost
      certainly have had the skill to deduce it as probable in spite of his
      sources being contradictory. Note that I am here positing Luke's successful
      retrieval of one simple piece of information (one bit in modern
      terminology), in contrast to your apparent claim that dozens of names
      (hundreds of bits) were successfully retrieved for Matthew's genealogy.

      JK: - - >
      I don't think that exchange between Jesus and his two cousins took
      place but they may indeed have been on the Right hand and the Left hand
      after the crucifixion, positions which had meaning in leadership status.
      Paul places them there with Kefa at the head, much like the organization of
      the Community Rule.

      RP: - - >
      In Gal 2:9 Paul places James first, indicating his status among the 'big
      three'. (I read Gal 1:18-19 as indicating Peter's approachability rather
      than his primacy.)
      However Paul never mentioned the sons of Zebedee as such. Had he done so,
      their historicity would have been assured. As it is we only have the word of
      a Mark who, in my view, almost certainly created the characters Judas the
      betrayer (so Maccoby) and Joseph of Arimathea (so Crossan). If he could
      create these two characters, he could just as readily create a few more.

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK

      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/




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    • David Mealand
      This topic ran for a while back in January. I have just seen a review of a book on Philo which gives particular attention to Philo s use of some passages from
      Message 73 of 73 , Feb 16, 2012
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        This topic ran for a while back in January.

        I have just seen a review of a book on Philo
        which gives particular attention to Philo's
        use of some passages from the haftarot which, it is
        argued, match part of a later cycle of such readings.
        Naomi Cohen, Philo's Scriptures ... (Brill 2007) is
        the book, and a very interesting and detailed review
        of it by Tzvee Zahavy is in Review of Rabbinic
        Judaism 15 (2012) 133-136.

        David M.







        ---------
        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


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        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
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