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Re: [XTalk] Jesus, Paul and the law

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  • Ronald Price
    ... Gordon, I meant that Christians rejected the whole Jewish system of laws based on the Torah, where ³whole² has its normal dictionary definition. Of
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 27, 2011
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      On 27/04/2011 12:05, "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...> wrote:

      > A point of clarification: what does "the whole" (now rejected by all
      > Christians)" mean?
      >
      Gordon,

      I meant that Christians rejected the whole Jewish system of laws based on
      the Torah, where ³whole² has its normal dictionary definition.

      Of course the Christian bible includes the Torah, but in practice it is the
      New Testament which is used as the yardstick for Christian behaviour, and
      even there Christians usually focus on general guidelines such as Œdo to
      others what you want people to do to you¹ rather than detailed rules or
      ³laws².

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK

      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Well, I don t know what the practice is in your Christian church (assuming that you belong to one), but in the Episcopal church (and Anglican), the Ten
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 27, 2011
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        At 08:54 AM 4/27/2011, Ronald Price wrote:
        >On 27/04/2011 12:05, "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...> wrote:
        >
        > > A point of clarification: what does "the whole" (now rejected by all
        > > Christians)" mean?
        > >
        >Gordon,
        >
        >I meant that Christians rejected the whole Jewish system of laws based on
        >the Torah, where ³whole² has its normal dictionary definition.
        >
        >Of course the Christian bible includes the Torah, but in practice it is the
        >New Testament which is used as the yardstick for Christian behaviour, and
        >even there Christians usually focus on general guidelines such as Œdo to
        >others what you want people to do to you¹ rather than detailed rules or
        >³laws².

        Well, I don't know what the practice is in your
        Christian church (assuming that you belong to
        one), but in the Episcopal church (and Anglican),
        the Ten Commandments are included in the Book of
        Common Prayer and are occasionally included in
        communal worship, especially in penitential seasons.
        Furthermore, here in the States we've had a bit
        of controversy with some evangelical Christians
        who want the Ten Commandments to be publicly
        displayed (e.g.,
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore). Contrary
        to your portrayal, I don't think the Ten
        Commandments are a dead letter in the Christian
        Church-- either now, or in the First Century of our era.

        Bob Schacht
        Northern Arizona University
        So that hardly sounds like a rejection of the "whole" of Jewish law.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ronald Price
        ... Bob, O.K., what I wrote was an over-simplification. You can tell I have never been a member of the Anglican Church! Nevertheless I think there is an
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 27, 2011
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          On 27/04/2011 17:35, "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...> wrote:

          > Well, I don't know what the practice is in your
          > Christian church (assuming that you belong to
          > one), but in the Episcopal church (and Anglican),
          > the Ten Commandments are included in the Book of
          > Common Prayer and are occasionally included in
          > communal worship, especially in penitential seasons.
          > Furthermore, here in the States we've had a bit
          > of controversy with some evangelical Christians
          > who want the Ten Commandments to be publicly
          > displayed (e.g.,
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore). Contrary
          > to your portrayal, I don't think the Ten
          > Commandments are a dead letter in the Christian
          > Church-- either now, or in the First Century of our era. .....
          >
          > So that hardly sounds like a rejection of the "whole" of Jewish law.

          Bob,

          O.K., what I wrote was an over-simplification. You can tell I have never
          been a member of the Anglican Church!

          Nevertheless I think there is an important distinction between Jewish
          acceptance of the ten commandments because they form part of the Torah, and
          any Christian acceptance of them. The latter cannot be simply because they
          are in the bible, for in that case Christians would not eat pork and
          circumcision would be obligatory on religious grounds. So presumably their
          attraction for some parts of the Church must be because they are perceived
          to reflect Christian values as reflected in the New Testament.

          Ron Price,

          Derbyshire, UK

          http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gordon Raynal
          Hi Ron, Thanks for your reply to me. I ll just respond off of Bob s note, so see below: ... This takes us away from Bible and into the world of Christian
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 27, 2011
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            Hi Ron,

            Thanks for your reply to me. I'll just respond off of Bob's note, so
            see below:
            On Apr 27, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Ronald Price wrote:

            > On 27/04/2011 17:35, "Bob Schacht" <r_schacht@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Well, I don't know what the practice is in your
            >> Christian church (assuming that you belong to
            >> one), but in the Episcopal church (and Anglican),
            >> the Ten Commandments are included in the Book of
            >> Common Prayer and are occasionally included in
            >> communal worship, especially in penitential seasons.
            >> Furthermore, here in the States we've had a bit
            >> of controversy with some evangelical Christians
            >> who want the Ten Commandments to be publicly
            >> displayed (e.g.,
            >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore). Contrary
            >> to your portrayal, I don't think the Ten
            >> Commandments are a dead letter in the Christian
            >> Church-- either now, or in the First Century of our era. .....
            >>
            >> So that hardly sounds like a rejection of the "whole" of Jewish law.
            >
            > Bob,
            >
            > O.K., what I wrote was an over-simplification. You can tell I have
            > never
            > been a member of the Anglican Church!
            >
            > Nevertheless I think there is an important distinction between Jewish
            > acceptance of the ten commandments because they form part of the
            > Torah, and
            > any Christian acceptance of them. The latter cannot be simply
            > because they
            > are in the bible, for in that case Christians would not eat pork and
            > circumcision would be obligatory on religious grounds. So presumably
            > their
            > attraction for some parts of the Church must be because they are
            > perceived
            > to reflect Christian values as reflected in the New Testament.
            >
            > Ron Price,
            >
            This takes us away from Bible and into the world of Christian theology
            and ethics, but your summation even here is still an
            oversimplification. The relationship between "grace and law" is an
            issue all across the Christian theological heritage and it is quite
            complex. That said, take a look sometimes at the Westminster Larger
            Catechism and the section on the place and understanding of the
            Decalogue.

            Gordon Raynal
            Inman, SC
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