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[XTalk] Re: the name of the thief

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  • Jack Kilmon
    Dismas, as the good thief and Gestas as the other thief crucified with Jesus is a tradition from the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy. The story expands the
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 30, 1999
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      Dismas, as the "good thief" and Gestas as the other thief crucified with
      Jesus is a tradition from the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy. The story
      expands the myth that these same two thieves encountered the Holy
      Family on their journey to Egypt and Dismas paid off Gestas not to
      rob them.

      Jack

      Jim West wrote:

      > is there any tradition which names the thief which sided with Jesus in Luke
      > 24? If so- would someone be kind enough to cite a reference...
      >
      > thanks,
      >
      > Jim
      >
      > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
      > Jim West, ThD
      > email- jwest@...
      > web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
      >
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      Jack Kilmon
      jkilmon@...
    • Jim West
      ... This is interesting Jack, would you mind clarifying the source of this story? Is it found in the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy? (As you can tell, my
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 30, 1999
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        At 10:06 AM 9/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
        >Dismas, as the "good thief" and Gestas as the other thief crucified with
        >Jesus is a tradition from the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy. The story
        >expands the myth that these same two thieves encountered the Holy
        >Family on their journey to Egypt and Dismas paid off Gestas not to
        >rob them.
        >
        >Jack

        This is interesting Jack, would you mind clarifying the source of this
        story? Is it found in the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy? (As you can tell,
        my familiarity with christian apocryphal and pseudepigraphal materials is
        simply dismal).

        Thanks,

        Jim

        +++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Jim West, ThD
        email- jwest@...
        web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
      • Jim West
        ... Now this is getting really interesting... WHY the name differences????? Thanks, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD email- jwest@highland.net web
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 30, 1999
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          At 04:30 PM 9/30/99 +0000, you wrote:
          >On 30 Sep 99, at 10:06, Jack Kilmon wrote:
          >
          >> Dismas, as the "good thief" and Gestas as the other thief crucified with
          >> Jesus is a tradition from the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy. The story
          >> expands the myth that these same two thieves encountered the Holy Family
          >> on their journey to Egypt and Dismas paid off Gestas not to rob them.
          >
          >This is fascinating -- thanks Jack. It's on the Wesley noncanonical page at:
          >
          >http://wesley.nnc.edu/noncanon/gospels/infarab.htm
          >
          >There they are called "Titus" and "Dumachus":

          Now this is getting really interesting...
          WHY the name differences?????

          Thanks,

          Jim

          +++++++++++++++++++++++++
          Jim West, ThD
          email- jwest@...
          web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
        • Mark Goodacre
          ... This is fascinating -- thanks Jack. It s on the Wesley noncanonical page at: http://wesley.nnc.edu/noncanon/gospels/infarab.htm There they are called
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 30, 1999
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            On 30 Sep 99, at 10:06, Jack Kilmon wrote:

            > Dismas, as the "good thief" and Gestas as the other thief crucified with
            > Jesus is a tradition from the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy. The story
            > expands the myth that these same two thieves encountered the Holy Family
            > on their journey to Egypt and Dismas paid off Gestas not to rob them.

            This is fascinating -- thanks Jack. It's on the Wesley noncanonical page at:

            http://wesley.nnc.edu/noncanon/gospels/infarab.htm

            There they are called "Titus" and "Dumachus":

            "23. And turning away from this place, they came to a desert; and hearing that it
            was infested by robbers, Joseph and the Lady Mary resolved to cross this region
            by night. But as they go along, behold, they see two robbers lying in the way, and
            along with them a great number of robbers, who were their associates, sleeping.
            Now those two robbers, into whose hands they had fallen, were Titus and
            Dumachus. Titus therefore said to Dumachus: I beseech thee to let these persons
            go freely, and so that our comrades may not see them. And as Dumachus refused,
            Titus said to him again: Take to thyself forty drachmas from me, and hold this as a
            pledge. At the same time he held out to him the belt which he had about his waist,
            to keep him from opening his mouth or speaking. And the Lady Mary, seeing that
            the robber had done them a kindness, said to him: The Lord God will sustain thee
            by His right hand, and will grant thee remission of thy sins. And the Lord Jesus
            answered, and said to His mother: Thirty years hence, O my mother, the Jews will
            crucify me at Jerusalem, and these two robbers will be raised upon the cross
            along with me, Titus on my right hand and Dumachus on my left; and after that
            day Titus shall go before me into Paradise. And she said: God keep this from
            thee, my son. And they went thence towards a city of idols, which, as they came
            near it, was changed into sand-hills."

            Mark
            --------------------------------------
            Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
            Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
            University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
            Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

            http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
            The New Testament Gateway
            Mark Without Q
            Aseneth Home Page
          • Robert M Schacht
            ... with ... The easiest and most obvious answer is that they represent two independent traditions. There is a venerable category of Jewish commentary that I
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 30, 1999
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              On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:56:23 -0400 Jim West <jwest@...> writes:
              > At 04:30 PM 9/30/99 +0000, you wrote:
              > >On 30 Sep 99, at 10:06, Jack Kilmon wrote:
              > >
              > >> Dismas, as the "good thief" and Gestas as the other thief crucified
              with
              > >> Jesus is a tradition from the Arabic Gospel of the Infancy. ...
              > >
              > >This is fascinating -- thanks Jack. It's on the Wesley noncanonical
              page at:
              > >
              > >http://wesley.nnc.edu/noncanon/gospels/infarab.htm
              > >
              > >There they are called "Titus" and "Dumachus":
              >
              > Now this is getting really interesting...
              > WHY the name differences?????
              > ...

              The easiest and most obvious answer is that they represent two
              independent traditions.

              There is a venerable category of Jewish commentary that I think is
              attested in the Tanakh, and even in the Torah, whereby stories were
              seemingly invented to answer just such questions as "Who were the thieves
              who were crucified with Jesus?"

              To quote a summary by Lew Reich in January 1997 that may be relevant,

              "Traditional Jewish sources talk about four progressively deeper
              levels of exegesis of a text: pshat, drash, remez, and sode (plain
              meaning, inquiry, hint and secret). (Note that the "house" of Hillel
              was a "Beit midrash" - literally a "House of Inquiry" and that term is
              still used today to describe the large hall in a traditional Yeshiva
              where studying takes place, usually in small groups.)"

              "Pshat has to do with ascertaining the plain literal meaning of the
              text, not always a straightforward task.

              Drash generally involves
              asking questions about apparent difficulties in the plain meaning of
              the text, and the midrash that results is (in the context most
              relevant to our situation) usually an effort to resolve that
              difficulty by telling a story that provides both an answer and a
              faith-strengthening lesson. (We are talking here of "midrash
              aggadah" - lit. the midrash of stories, which is what is usually
              referred to when the word midrash is used alone. The method is also
              applied to deduce halakhic rulings from the text according to rules
              of exegesis, and this effort is referred to as "midrash halakhah",
              "inquiry of halakhah".)

              Remez, or hint, involves veiled allusions such as numerical values
              ("gematria")
              and abbreviations ("notarikon").

              Sode, secret or mystery, involves esoteric interpretation."

              I believe that Islam has similar levels of exegesis.

              Bob
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