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  • Thomas Kopecek
    I ve had to be away from Crosstalk for about a week to ten days. I was hoping to be refreshed when I returned. But one of the first posts I read as I sought to
    Message 1 of 48 , Jan 19, 2011
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      I've had to be away from Crosstalk for about a week to ten days. I was hoping to be refreshed when I returned. But one of the first posts I read as I sought to catch up depressed me greatly, not because of the details of the author's arguments (though I've remained totally unconvinced by them), but, well, readers will see. Perhaps others on the list view things the way I do. If not, let them press delete quickly.

      E. Bruce Brooks wrote:
      "This sort of thing, if attended to carefully (and this being an "academic"
      list, I think the world is entitled to expect that of us), gives a subtly
      different Jesus than the one we all remember from the picture on the wall of
      the Sunday School room. It is earthier, angrier, more Jewish and less Anglican."


      *I* don't remember such a picture. Moreover, did all on the list attend a church that had "Sunday School"-or even attend a church? What kind of parochialism is being engaged in here, "this being an 'academic' list"? Ought one to expect writing of this sort on "an academic list"?

      Furthermore, I dare say there have been some Anglicans who have had to deal with an 'angry' Jesus, the Jesus of which that famous 'Nine Lessons and Carols for Christmastide' broadcast worldwide speaks in its final prayer (a couple of us mentioned the broadcast a while back):

      "O God, who makest us glad with the yearly remembrance of the birth of thy only Son, Jesus Christ: Grant that as we joyfully receive him for our Redeemer, so we may, with sure confidence, behold him when he shall come to be our Judge; who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen."

      Is Jesus the Judge "the Nice" or "the Hallmark" Jesus?

      in the American Heartland [a bad ice storm was punishment enough],


      -----Original Message-----
      From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of E Bruce Brooks
      Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 3:26 PM
      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: GPG; WSW
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] GOSPEL (OF THE KINGDOM) OF GOD

      To: Crosstalk
      Cc: GPG, WSW
      In Response To: Unnamed Correspondent
      On: The Markan Jesus
      From: Bruce

      Tsk. I had pointed out that no uniquely Markan saying of Jesus gets pinked
      (or better) by the JSem. To put it still another way, the JSem stay within
      the boundaries of Q/Thos. They are preaching, or anyway printing, the Gospel
      of the Nice Jesus.

      It was then urged that this result is meaningless, since there are few
      sayings of Jesus that are unique to Mark. And I was challenged to cite a
      uniquely Markan saying that I think deserves acceptance as going back to
      authentic tradition.

      The simple answer is: All of them. Not counting what Thomas later makes or
      does not make of the Christian tradition then available to him or them, and
      including a few words *about* Jesus that also do not get picked up in the
      later Nice Jesus tradition, the expanded and reworked Jesus of the Second
      Tier Gospels, we might have:

      Mk 1:15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at
      hand. Repent, and believe in the Gospel.

      *Mk 1:27 [Capernaum folks]. . . A new teaching!

      Mk 1:38. For that is why I came out.

      Mk 4:26. The Kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed upon the
      ground. [27] And should sleep and rise night and day, and the seed should
      sprout and grow, he knows not how. [28] The earth produces of itself, first
      the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. [29] But when the
      grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.

      Mk 4:32 . . . can make nests in its shade.

      Mk 5:41. Talitha cumi.

      Mk 6:4 . . . and among his own kin . . .

      Mk 7:22 . . . coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, pride,

      Mk 7:34. Ephphatha

      *Mk 8:29 [Peter]: You are the Christ.

      Mk 8:35 . . . [for my sake] and the Gospel's . . .

      Mk 9:14 . . . "If you can!" All things are possible to him who believes.

      Mk 9:29 That kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.

      Mk 9:39. For no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon
      after to speak evil of me.

      Mk 9:45. And if your left foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better
      for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell . . .
      [48] where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

      Mk 10:10. Do not defraud.

      Mk 10:30 . . . houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and
      lands, with persecution . . .

      Mk 11:23 . . . and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he
      says will come to pass, it will be done for him.

      Mk 11:25 . . . so that your Father . . .(note the causative sequence)

      Mk 12:29. Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

      Mk 12:31b. There is no other commandment greater than these.

      Mk 12:34. You are not far from the Kingdom of God

      Mk 14:25 . . . when I drink it new in the Kingdom of God.

      [And some of the tough sayings of Jesus in Mark get weeded out only at the
      soft Lukan level; Matthew can still stomach them. Including this Last Word
      of Jesus]:

      Mk 15:34. Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani [which means, My God, My God, why
      hast thou forsaken me]?


      This sort of thing, if attended to carefully (and this being an "academic"
      list, I think the world is entitled to expect that of us), gives a subtly
      different Jesus than the one we all remember from the picture on the wall of
      the Sunday School room. It is earthier, angrier, more Jewish and less
      Anglican, more commercially minded (that is, more transactionally minded),
      and more consistently based on prayer, and on expectations from God that
      arise from prayer, and from following a simple and not humanly intelligible
      list of Do and Don't.

      This Jesus is not unrecognizable within the later or Hallmark Jesus, but the
      tone and tendency are different. I think it is worth the time of those who
      propose to take the Gospel tradition seriously, which means,
      chronologically, to ponder these things.

      Respectfully suggested,


      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst

      I once taught a graduate seminar in which the semester task was to compare
      Ywaen and Ming versions of the libretto of one Chinese opera, and explain
      every single difference. The result surprised even my analytical self. What
      came out was a whole history of the social, political, literary, musical,
      and yes, prosodic differences between those two dynasties. It could have
      been a book, though we at that time were all lacking in commercial savvy,
      and no book in fact ensued.

      The Pre-Nice Jesus might be worth a book too, if it comes to that. Not for
      sale to the Sunday School crowd - I would not for anything disturb the good
      people who are happy in their reason for being good - but for the reflective
      person here and there. I have that book planned for about 2014, and the
      present print order is six. Since I might keep one copy for myself, that is
      an estimate of five interested persons. I realize that the membership of
      this list is somewhat larger than that, and enter herewith any apologies
      that the others may feel are called for.


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    • RSBrenchley@aol.com
      Message 48 of 48 , Jan 30, 2011
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        <<Ariel, D.T., A Survey of Coin Finds in Jerusalem,
        Liber Annuus 32, 1982, pp 273-326.

        Unless we have an old print copy in the pre-1985 stack here,
        the data for denarii in Jerusalem is out of reach
        just now, so, at least for the time being, I'll just shift to your
        view that there weren't that many around in the city.

        David M.>>

        I'm having trouble getting hold of it as well, so I'll have to go by
        memory, unfortunately. I did contact Ariel himself, but he's got nothing beyond
        a single paper copy. While it's not strictly on topic, I do have H Gitler's
        (Liber Annuus 1996), which covers bronze coinage from the city. No
        imperial bronze is recorded from before the 4th Century, after the abolition of
        the provincial mints, and their replacement with imperial ones.


        Robert Brenchley
        Birmingham UK

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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