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RE: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?

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  • Joseph Codsi
    Jeffrey, You are right. I was too hasty in my reading of Focant. He was discussing Wrede s view. Joseph Codsi Seattle ________________________________ From:
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
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      Jeffrey,
      You are right. I was too hasty in my reading of Focant. He was discussing Wrede's view.
      Joseph Codsi
      Seattle

      ________________________________

      From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jgibson000@...
      Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:26 AM
      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?




      On 11/13/2010 12:20 PM, Joseph Codsi wrote:
      > An interesting statement by Focant. He says in substance that Mark wanted to hide the fact that during his life Jesus was not perceived as the Messiah. (18)
      > In order to hide this embarrassing fact, Mark used 'literary devices'(artifice littéraire)with which he reveals in his narrative what was not perceived then.
      > I find this interpretation very interesting. It can be used to identify the events that were created by Mark and are not historical. This will cover all the epiphanies and mini revelations that can be found all over his Gospel.
      >
      > Joseph Codsi
      > Seattle
      > ______________________
      Does he think he is original in this claim? Has he -- or you, for that
      matter -- not read (the 100 year old work of) Wrede?

      Jeffrey

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@... <mailto:jgibson000%40comcast.net>
    • jgibson000@comcast.net
      ... What bothers me most here is not only that you thought the idea was new, but that it was insightful. It means that you are not all that familiar with the
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
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        On 11/13/2010 1:33 PM, Joseph Codsi wrote:
        > Jeffrey,
        > You are right. I was too hasty in my reading of Focant. He was discussing Wrede's view.
        > Joseph Codsi
        > Seattle
        >
        >
        What bothers me most here is not only that you thought the idea was
        new, but that it was insightful. It means that you are not all that
        familiar with the answers that have been given by scholars to Swede's
        claim that show that it is entirely wanting.

        May I suggest that you have a look at, e.g, Lewis S. Hay, "Mark's Use
        of the Messianic Secret", /Journal of the American Academy of
        Religion/, Vol. 35, No. 1 (Mar., 1967) 16-27 and especially WC
        Robinson, "The Quest for Swede's Secret Messiah," /Interpretation / 27
        (1973)10-30 among the many articles and monographs on the topic that you
        curiously seem not to be aware of.

        Jeffrey

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 12:25 PM To: Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
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          --------------------------------------------------
          From: <jgibson000@...>
          Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 12:25 PM
          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?

          > On 11/13/2010 12:20 PM, Joseph Codsi wrote:
          >> An interesting statement by Focant. He says in substance that Mark wanted
          >> to hide the fact that during his life Jesus was not perceived as the
          >> Messiah. (18)
          >> In order to hide this embarrassing fact, Mark used 'literary
          >> devices'(artifice littéraire)with which he reveals in his narrative what
          >> was not perceived then.
          >> I find this interpretation very interesting. It can be used to identify
          >> the events that were created by Mark and are not historical. This will
          >> cover all the epiphanies and mini revelations that can be found all over
          >> his Gospel.
          >>
          >> Joseph Codsi
          >> Seattle
          >> ______________________
          > Does he think he is original in this claim? Has he -- or you, for that
          > matter -- not read (the 100 year old work of) Wrede?
          >
          > Jeffrey

          The 1901 German pub was published in English (The Messianic Secret) in 1971
          and is still available. Of course, I read it because my position is that it
          was also a "secret" to Jesus who did not consider himself the Messiah. I
          think that because his followers continued to insist, out of their
          expectation fervor, it got him killed.

          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Antonio, TX
        • David Cavanagh
          ... Hmm....I think Paula Fredriksen s thesis (that it was the enthusiasm of the crowds that sealed Jesus fate) is more likely.... David Cavanagh Major (The
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
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            On 13/11/2010 21:53, Jack Kilmon wrote:
            >
            >
            > The 1901 German pub was published in English (The Messianic Secret) in
            > 1971
            > and is still available. Of course, I read it because my position is
            > that it
            > was also a "secret" to Jesus who did not consider himself the Messiah. I
            > think that because his followers continued to insist, out of their
            > expectation fervor, it got him killed.
            >
            Hmm....I think Paula Fredriksen's thesis (that it was the enthusiasm of
            the crowds that sealed Jesus' fate) is more likely....

            David Cavanagh
            Major (The Salvation Army)
            Florence (Italy)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: David Cavanagh Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:15 PM To: Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
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              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "David Cavanagh" <davidcavanagh@...>
              Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:15 PM
              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?

              > On 13/11/2010 21:53, Jack Kilmon wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> The 1901 German pub was published in English (The Messianic Secret) in
              >> 1971
              >> and is still available. Of course, I read it because my position is
              >> that it
              >> was also a "secret" to Jesus who did not consider himself the Messiah. I
              >> think that because his followers continued to insist, out of their
              >> expectation fervor, it got him killed.
              >>
              > Hmm....I think Paula Fredriksen's thesis (that it was the enthusiasm of
              > the crowds that sealed Jesus' fate) is more likely....
              >
              > David Cavanagh
              > Major (The Salvation Army)
              > Florence (Italy)


              I think we are saying the same thing, Dave, albeit I am very skeptical of
              the "crowds" reactions in the passion narratives. I think the entire
              Barabbas story is a fiction designed to set up the Jewish crowds for "Then
              answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our
              children."

              My only question is whether the Matthean author, an apostate Hellenistic Jew
              who "came over" to Gentile Christianity, probably in Antioch, did this or
              some later redactor.

              Jack


              Jack Kilmon
              San Antonio, TX
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