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Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?

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  • Rikk Watts
    Hmm.. sounds like a re-run of Wrede to me.. Rikk
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
      Hmm.. sounds like a re-run of Wrede to me..

      Rikk




      > From: Joseph Codsi <jcodsi@...>
      > Reply-To: xtalk <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:20:15 -0800
      > To: xtalk <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: RE: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?
      >
      > An interesting statement by Focant. He says in substance that Mark wanted to
      > hide the fact that during his life Jesus was not perceived as the Messiah.
      > (18)
      > In order to hide this embarrassing fact, Mark used 'literary devices'(artifice
      > littéraire)with which he reveals in his narrative what was not perceived then.
      > I find this interpretation very interesting. It can be used to identify the
      > events that were created by Mark and are not historical. This will cover all
      > the epiphanies and mini revelations that can be found all over his Gospel.
      >
      > Joseph Codsi
      > Seattle
      > ________________________________
      >
      >
      > Camille Focant, "Une christologie de type 'mystique' (Marc 1.1-16.8)." _New
      > Testament Studies_ January 2009. 1-21.
      >
      >
      >
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    • Joseph Codsi
      Jeffrey, You are right. I was too hasty in my reading of Focant. He was discussing Wrede s view. Joseph Codsi Seattle ________________________________ From:
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
        Jeffrey,
        You are right. I was too hasty in my reading of Focant. He was discussing Wrede's view.
        Joseph Codsi
        Seattle

        ________________________________

        From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jgibson000@...
        Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:26 AM
        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?




        On 11/13/2010 12:20 PM, Joseph Codsi wrote:
        > An interesting statement by Focant. He says in substance that Mark wanted to hide the fact that during his life Jesus was not perceived as the Messiah. (18)
        > In order to hide this embarrassing fact, Mark used 'literary devices'(artifice littéraire)with which he reveals in his narrative what was not perceived then.
        > I find this interpretation very interesting. It can be used to identify the events that were created by Mark and are not historical. This will cover all the epiphanies and mini revelations that can be found all over his Gospel.
        >
        > Joseph Codsi
        > Seattle
        > ______________________
        Does he think he is original in this claim? Has he -- or you, for that
        matter -- not read (the 100 year old work of) Wrede?

        Jeffrey

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@... <mailto:jgibson000%40comcast.net>
      • jgibson000@comcast.net
        ... What bothers me most here is not only that you thought the idea was new, but that it was insightful. It means that you are not all that familiar with the
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
          On 11/13/2010 1:33 PM, Joseph Codsi wrote:
          > Jeffrey,
          > You are right. I was too hasty in my reading of Focant. He was discussing Wrede's view.
          > Joseph Codsi
          > Seattle
          >
          >
          What bothers me most here is not only that you thought the idea was
          new, but that it was insightful. It means that you are not all that
          familiar with the answers that have been given by scholars to Swede's
          claim that show that it is entirely wanting.

          May I suggest that you have a look at, e.g, Lewis S. Hay, "Mark's Use
          of the Messianic Secret", /Journal of the American Academy of
          Religion/, Vol. 35, No. 1 (Mar., 1967) 16-27 and especially WC
          Robinson, "The Quest for Swede's Secret Messiah," /Interpretation / 27
          (1973)10-30 among the many articles and monographs on the topic that you
          curiously seem not to be aware of.

          Jeffrey

          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 12:25 PM To: Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
            --------------------------------------------------
            From: <jgibson000@...>
            Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 12:25 PM
            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?

            > On 11/13/2010 12:20 PM, Joseph Codsi wrote:
            >> An interesting statement by Focant. He says in substance that Mark wanted
            >> to hide the fact that during his life Jesus was not perceived as the
            >> Messiah. (18)
            >> In order to hide this embarrassing fact, Mark used 'literary
            >> devices'(artifice littéraire)with which he reveals in his narrative what
            >> was not perceived then.
            >> I find this interpretation very interesting. It can be used to identify
            >> the events that were created by Mark and are not historical. This will
            >> cover all the epiphanies and mini revelations that can be found all over
            >> his Gospel.
            >>
            >> Joseph Codsi
            >> Seattle
            >> ______________________
            > Does he think he is original in this claim? Has he -- or you, for that
            > matter -- not read (the 100 year old work of) Wrede?
            >
            > Jeffrey

            The 1901 German pub was published in English (The Messianic Secret) in 1971
            and is still available. Of course, I read it because my position is that it
            was also a "secret" to Jesus who did not consider himself the Messiah. I
            think that because his followers continued to insist, out of their
            expectation fervor, it got him killed.

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
            San Antonio, TX
          • David Cavanagh
            ... Hmm....I think Paula Fredriksen s thesis (that it was the enthusiasm of the crowds that sealed Jesus fate) is more likely.... David Cavanagh Major (The
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
              On 13/11/2010 21:53, Jack Kilmon wrote:
              >
              >
              > The 1901 German pub was published in English (The Messianic Secret) in
              > 1971
              > and is still available. Of course, I read it because my position is
              > that it
              > was also a "secret" to Jesus who did not consider himself the Messiah. I
              > think that because his followers continued to insist, out of their
              > expectation fervor, it got him killed.
              >
              Hmm....I think Paula Fredriksen's thesis (that it was the enthusiasm of
              the crowds that sealed Jesus' fate) is more likely....

              David Cavanagh
              Major (The Salvation Army)
              Florence (Italy)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jack Kilmon
              ... From: David Cavanagh Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:15 PM To: Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 13, 2010
                --------------------------------------------------
                From: "David Cavanagh" <davidcavanagh@...>
                Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:15 PM
                To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [XTalk] Any responses to Article on Mark by Focant?

                > On 13/11/2010 21:53, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >> The 1901 German pub was published in English (The Messianic Secret) in
                >> 1971
                >> and is still available. Of course, I read it because my position is
                >> that it
                >> was also a "secret" to Jesus who did not consider himself the Messiah. I
                >> think that because his followers continued to insist, out of their
                >> expectation fervor, it got him killed.
                >>
                > Hmm....I think Paula Fredriksen's thesis (that it was the enthusiasm of
                > the crowds that sealed Jesus' fate) is more likely....
                >
                > David Cavanagh
                > Major (The Salvation Army)
                > Florence (Italy)


                I think we are saying the same thing, Dave, albeit I am very skeptical of
                the "crowds" reactions in the passion narratives. I think the entire
                Barabbas story is a fiction designed to set up the Jewish crowds for "Then
                answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our
                children."

                My only question is whether the Matthean author, an apostate Hellenistic Jew
                who "came over" to Gentile Christianity, probably in Antioch, did this or
                some later redactor.

                Jack


                Jack Kilmon
                San Antonio, TX
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