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Re: [XTalk] Kingdom of God Kingdom of my Father

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  • ehub035
    ... God ... Well, the following could be construed as evidence in either direction, but taking (what most scholars take as) the earliest strata, certain turns
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 8, 2009
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      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...> wrote:

      > First thought is to what Jesus means generally when he refers to "my
      > father". I know that it is generally assumed that he is referring to
      > rather than to Joseph, but what is the evidence for that?

      Well, the following could be construed as evidence in either direction,
      but taking (what most scholars take as) the earliest strata, certain
      turns of speech do pop up that seem worth some scrutiny. I don't
      pretend to have some magic key to what each one may mean, but here are
      what _appear_ to be the earliest such replies that talk in such terms.

      First, I give the full texts and contexts of the three seemingly more
      clear (IMO) passages, and then I get to the two more ambiguous passages

      First off, Luke(Q):22:28-30. Here are the lead-in sentences, followed by
      the key passage and subsequent verses:

      [LEAD-IN SENTENCES] Position in the Coming Kingdom
      22.24 A dispute also arose among them, which of them was to be regarded
      as the greatest.
      22.25 And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship
      over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors.
      22.26 But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as
      the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.
      22.27 For which is the greater, one who sits at table, or one who
      serves? Is it not the one who sits at table? But I am among you as one
      who serves.

      [KEY PASSAGE] 22.28 " You are those who have continued with me in my
      22.29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,
      22.30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on
      thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

      [FOLLOWED UP BY] Simon Peter's Denial Predicted
      22.31 " Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might
      sift you like wheat,
      22.32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when
      you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."
      22.33 And he said to him, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and
      to death."
      22.34 He said, "I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day,
      until you three times deny that you know me."

      The Gospel of Thomas is structured like the Analects of Confucius: that
      is, individual anecdotes strung together without a narrative context
      before and after. So here is Thomas:99:

      99) The disciples said to Him, "Your brothers and Your mother are
      standing outside." He said to them, "Those here who do the will of My
      Father are My brothers and My mother. It is they who will enter the
      Kingdom of My Father."

      And now, Mark:14:61-62. Here are the lead-in sentences, followed by the
      key passage and subsequent verses:

      [LEAD-IN SENTENCES] 14.55Now the chief priests and the whole council
      sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death; but they found none.
      14.56For many bore false witness against him, and their witness did not
      agree. 14.57And some stood up and bore false witness against him,
      14.58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with
      hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.'"
      14.59Yet not even so did their testimony agree.
      14.60And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, "Have
      you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?"

      [KEY PASSAGE] 14.61But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high
      priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"
      14.62And Jesus said, "I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at
      the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

      [FOLLOWED UP BY] 14.63And the high priest tore his garments, and said,
      "Why do we still need witnesses?
      14.64You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?" And they all
      condemned him as deserving death.

      And now, here are the same for the two seemingly more ambiguous passages
      (IMO). First, Luke(Q):10:21-22:

      [LEAD-IN SENTENCES] The Return of the Seventy
      10.17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are
      subject to us in your name!"
      10.18 And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
      10.19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and
      scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt
      10.20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject
      to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

      [KEY PASSAGE] Jesus' Thanks to the Father
      10.21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I
      thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden
      these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes;
      yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.
      10.22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one
      knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the
      Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

      [FOLLOWED UP BY] The Blessedness of the Disciples
      10.23 Then turning to the disciples he said privately, "Blessed are the
      eyes which see what you see!
      10.24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what
      you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear

      And finally, Thomas:61:

      61) Jesus said, "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and other
      will live." Salome said to him, "Who are You, man, that You, as though
      from the One, have come up on my couch and eaten from my table?" Jesus
      said to her, "I am He who exists from the Undivided. I was given some of
      the things of my Father." <Salome said,> "I am Your disciple." <Jesus
      said to her,> "Therefore I say, if he is <undivided>, he will be filled
      with light, but if he is divided, he will be filled with darkness."

      These five remarks are, arguably, the ones that one should start with if
      one wants to get some kind of idea of what Jesus seemed to be speaking
      of when suggesting someone "special" was his father.

      My two cents,

      Geoff Riggs
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