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RE: [XTalk] OT: What "those in the pew" think they are praying for

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  • Matson, Mark (Academic)
    Jeffrey: ... I actually don t think most people even think it says may your name be hallowed They think this is a simple statement of fact. Hallowed be
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
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      Jeffrey:

      Comments below. And based on lots of teaching of the Lord's Prayer. And I might note most recently in a highly educated congregation where I asked, as I often do, what the first three petitions mean:

      >What they think they are praying for when they say "May your name be
      >hallowed" is either that God will act in such a way that everyone
      >will recognize him for the holy being that he is or, working from
      >the impression that "to be hallowed" means "to be praised", that
      >all everyone, and not just Christians, will eventually give him the
      >honour and respect and the kinds of worship he deserves.

      I actually don't think most people even think it says "may your name be hallowed" They think this is a simple statement of fact. "Hallowed be thy name" means, for most, "your name is holy"

      > What they think they are praying for when they say "May your kingdom
      >come" is either a profound inner personal and individualized
      >experience of God's love, forgiveness, or empowering presence or it
      >is the hurrying of God's establishment on earth of something that
      >they have been taught properly belongs to the world's future -- a
      > promised end of all earthly misery and injustice, a reign of peace
      >and well being, the experience of heaven on earth.

      Again, I don't see most translating the KJV or RSV or NRSV to "may your kingdom come". For them the term "thy kingdom come" is either:

      a. Your kingdom is coming
      b. Your kingdom has come.


      mark

      Mark A. Matson
      Academic Dean
      Milligan College
      http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
    • Gordon Raynal
      ... Hi Jeffrey, This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it s forgive us our
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
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        On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

        > Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
        >> Which translation are you going to use? For instance, a lot of
        >> people using the KJV might not even know what "hallowed" means.
        > I'm confused. Are you saying that they wouldn't know what hallowed
        > means because the word doesn't appear in the KJV text of Matt. 6:9 or
        > because the word itself is archaic?
        >> Or "trespasses." Depending on how the LP is translated, people
        >> could have various beliefs, I suspect.
        >>
        > It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
        > nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite the LP.
        >
        > Jeffrey

        Hi Jeffrey,
        This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
        heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
        debts..."
        Gordon Raynal
        Inman, SC
        >
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if they think about it what they are saying at all.? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
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          Gordon Raynal wrote:
          > On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
          >
          >
          >> It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
          >> nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite the LP.
          >>
          >> Jeffrey
          >>
          >
          > Hi Jeffrey,
          > This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
          > heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
          > debts..."
          >
          And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if they
          think about it what they are saying at all.?

          Jeffrey

          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gordon Raynal
          Hi Jeffrey, Thinking in church? How often does that happen;)? Seriously, simply a synonym for forgive us our sins. Conservative Calvinism, of course,
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
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            Hi Jeffrey,

            Thinking in church? How often does that happen;)? Seriously, simply
            a synonym for "forgive us our sins." Conservative Calvinism, of
            course, focuses on substitutionary atonement and the prayer's first
            petition is understood to uphold that doctrine and thus include "from
            the Lord" the call to pray for the forgiveness of sins under that
            understanding.

            BTW... when I lead "mixed" funerals here there is always a bit of
            "saying this"/ "saying that" when the LP is used. You can get a
            relative head count in a room by who is saying what:)!

            Gordon Raynal
            Inman, SC
            On Feb 23, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

            > Gordon Raynal wrote:
            >> On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >>> It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
            >>> nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite
            >>> the LP.
            >>>
            >>> Jeffrey
            >>>
            >>
            >> Hi Jeffrey,
            >> This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
            >> heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
            >> debts..."
            >>
            > And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if
            > they
            > think about it what they are saying at all.?
            >
            > Jeffrey
            >
            > --
            > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            > Chicago, Illinois
            > e-mail jgibson000@...
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
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          • Gordon Raynal
            Hi Jeffrey, ... One other point. The Robert Robinson (1758) hymn, Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing uses the debtor language related to the LP with a nice
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
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              Hi Jeffrey,

              On Feb 23, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

              > Gordon Raynal wrote:
              >> On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>> It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
              >>> nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite
              >>> the LP.
              >>>
              >>> Jeffrey
              >>>
              >>
              >> Hi Jeffrey,
              >> This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
              >> heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
              >> debts..."
              >>
              > And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if
              > they
              > think about it what they are saying at all.?

              One other point. The Robert Robinson (1758) hymn, "Come, Thou Fount
              of Every Blessing" uses the debtor language related to the LP with a
              nice twist in the 3rd verse:
              "O to grace how great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be! Let that
              grace now, like a fetter, bind my wandering heart to Thee...."
              Gordon Raynal
              Inman, SC
              >
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