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Re: [XTalk] The criterion of embarrassment

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  • David Cavanagh
    Ron Price wrote:in response to Karel Hanhart ... To that, I would add that there is considerable evidence in the gospels that Jesus said/did something that was
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 21, 2009
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      Ron Price wrote:in response to Karel Hanhart
      >
      > The destruction of the temple was a great debacle
      > only to the Jews.
      >



      To that, I would add that there is considerable evidence in the gospels
      that Jesus said/did something that was understood as a symbolic
      pronouncement of judgment on the Temple (Mark 14:58, see 11:15-17; 13:2).
      >
      >
      > I see Mk 9:1 as an original saying of a human
      > Jesus who was sometimes wrong. I don't think it has anything to do with
      > Gentiles, for the mission of the historical Jesus was restricted to
      > Jews (Mt
      > 10:5,23).
      >






      Here, along with Caird, Borg and Wright, I would suggest that Jesus'
      statement while couched in terms of an apocalyptic kingdom coming in
      power, referred to his certainty that God would vindicate him (which the
      early church saw fulfilled in the twin events of the resurrection and
      the destruction of the Temple.

      David Cavanagh
      Major (The Salvation Army)
      Florence (Italy)



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    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
      Ron Price wrote, replying to Karel Hanhart: ... Here I m not so convinced. The destruction of the temple was a great debacle only to the Jews. Mark Matson
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 21, 2009
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        Ron Price wrote, replying to Karel Hanhart:

        Karel Hanhart wrote:

        > If what I wrote thus far is correct, Mark and his readers would understand the
        > destruction of the temple in 70 as a great debacle, an utmost attempt of the
        > forces of evil to undo the reign of God.

        Here I'm not so convinced. The destruction of the temple was a great debacle
        only to the Jews.


        Mark Matson replies:

        I don't think I agree with either of you. For those who were steeped in more apocalyptic expectations of God's intervention, and the hope and desire for a New Temple, and thus the inbreaking of a New Israel, the destruction of the temple could well have been seen as the beginning of a new order of things. And indeed that may wall have been (=probably was) the view point of Jesus. From this perspective, Jesus' sayings in Mark that anticipate the destruction of the temple need not have been ex eventu, but might well reflect the expectation of those within Judaism that were expecting a radical break in history, who where critical of the existing practice of the priesthood (without necessarily believing that the temple was inhently bad or that sacrifice would be done away with), or who simply saw the world as moving in a downward spiral and awaiting God's redemption, which would naturally have involved a new temple.

        E.P. Sanders in Jesus and Judaism does an excellent job, in my opinion, of showing precisely the extent of this anticipation of a new temple within 2nd Temple Judaism. I am away from home right now, and don't have ready access to my library, so I can't point specifically to the extensive evidence proferred for this.

        But I don't think it is a given that (a) Mark's or his readers would have view this as a debacle, nor (b) that even all Jews would have viewed it as so. Of course Judaism was varied, as the oft-used plural "Judaisms" suggests.

        Mark A. Matson
        Academic Dean
        Milligan College
        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm


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