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OT: What "those in the pew" think they are praying for

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    I ve been trying to draw up a summary of what it is -- as is indicated by popular literature on Matt. 6:9-13//Luke 11:2-4 -- that those in the pew believe
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
      I've been trying to draw up a summary of what it is -- as is indicated
      by popular literature on Matt. 6:9-13//Luke 11:2-4 -- that those in the
      pew believe they are praying for when they recite the words of the
      Lord's Prayer.

      I'm posting here what I've come up with so far.

      I'd be grateful for your feedback. Do I have it right? Are there
      things I've missed?

      With thanks in advance,

      Jeffrey


      ******

      What Christians think they are saying when, in following Jesus'
      admonition to do so, they addresses God as Father is that God is
      not only a personable being, but one who is as close by, as caring,
      as merciful, and as providential as modern fathers are expected to
      be with their children.

      What they think they are praying for when they say "May your name be
      hallowed" is either that God will act in such a way that everyone
      will recognize him for the holy being that he is or, working from
      the impression that "to be hallowed" means "to be praised", that
      all everyone, and not just Christians, will eventually give him the
      honour and respect and the kinds of worship he deserves.

      What they think they are praying for when they say "May your kingdom
      come" is either a profound inner personal and individualized
      experience of God's love, forgiveness, or empowering presence or it
      is the hurrying of God's establishment on earth of something that
      they have been taught properly belongs to the world's future -- a
      promised end of all earthly misery and injustice, a reign of peace
      and well being, the experience of heaven on earth.

      What they think they are praying for when they say "give us this
      day our daily bead" is relief from present need.

      What they think they are praying for when they say "Forgive us our
      trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" is either a
      remittance of expected punishment for the sins they have
      individually committed or a release from any and all guilt
      experienced on account of them, since more often than not, the "us"
      and the "our" and the "we" of the prayer is transmuted consciously
      or unconsciously into "me", "my" and "I".

      And what they think they are praying for when the say "lead us not
      into temptation" is either divine protection from experiencing or
      succumbing to the sinful enticements and hard travails that daily
      plague us or, following the idea that some scholars have put forward
      that here the word "temptation" refers to a series of trials that
      God's elect will be subjected to when he finally moves to
      re-establish his sovereignty over the earth and rid the world of all
      rebelliousness against him, the so called "final" and potentially
      overwhelming test of faithfulness that they believe awaits them in
      the future.

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Which translation are you going to use? For instance, a lot of people using the KJV might not even know what hallowed means. Or trespasses. Depending on
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
        Which translation are you going to use? For instance, a lot of people using the KJV might not even know what "hallowed" means. Or "trespasses." Depending on how the LP is translated, people could have various beliefs, I suspect.
         
        Jeffery Hodges


        --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:


        From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
        Subject: [XTalk] OT: What "those in the pew" think they are praying for
        To: "Crosstalk2" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: "biblical-studies" <biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com>, "NewSynoptic" <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 1:09 PM


        I've been trying to draw up a summary of what it is -- as is indicated
        by popular literature on Matt. 6:9-13//Luke 11:2-4 -- that those in the
        pew  believe they are praying for when they recite the words of the
        Lord's Prayer.

        I'm posting here what I've come up with so far.

        I'd be grateful for your feedback.  Do I have it right?  Are there
        things I've missed?

        With thanks in advance,

        Jeffrey


        ******

            What Christians think they are saying when, in following Jesus'
            admonition to do so,  they addresses God as Father is that God is
            not only a personable being, but one who is as close by, as caring,
            as merciful, and as providential as modern fathers are expected to
            be with  their children.

            What they think they are praying for when they say "May your name be
            hallowed" is either that God will act in such a way that everyone
            will recognize him for the holy being that he is or, working from
            the impression that "to be hallowed" means "to be praised",  that
            all everyone, and not just Christians,  will eventually give him the
            honour and respect and the kinds of worship  he deserves.

            What they think they are praying for when they say "May your kingdom
            come" is either a profound inner personal and individualized
            experience of God's love, forgiveness,  or empowering presence or it
            is the hurrying of God's establishment on earth of something that
            they have been taught properly belongs to the world's future -- a
            promised end of all earthly misery and injustice, a reign of peace
            and well being, the experience of heaven on earth.

            What they think they are praying for when they say  "give us this
            day our daily bead" is relief from present need.

            What they think they are praying for when they say "Forgive us our
            trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" is either a
            remittance of expected punishment for the sins they have
            individually committed or a release from any and all guilt
            experienced on account of them, since more often than not, the "us"
            and the "our" and the "we" of the prayer is transmuted consciously
            or unconsciously into "me", "my" and "I".
             
            And what they think they are praying for when the say "lead us not
            into temptation" is either divine protection from experiencing or
            succumbing to the sinful enticements and hard travails that daily
            plague us or, following the idea that some scholars have put forward
            that here the word "temptation" refers to a series of trials that
            God's elect will be subjected to when he  finally moves to
            re-establish his sovereignty over the earth and rid the world of all
            rebelliousness against him,   the so called "final" and potentially
            overwhelming test of faithfulness that they believe awaits them in
            the future.

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... I m confused. Are you saying that they wouldn t know what hallowed means because the word doesn t appear in the KJV text of Matt. 6:9 or because the word
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
          Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
          > Which translation are you going to use? For instance, a lot of people using the KJV might not even know what "hallowed" means.
          I'm confused. Are you saying that they wouldn't know what hallowed
          means because the word doesn't appear in the KJV text of Matt. 6:9 or
          because the word itself is archaic?
          > Or "trespasses." Depending on how the LP is translated, people could have various beliefs, I suspect.
          >
          It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
          nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite the LP.

          Jeffrey

          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
          I meant because the word is archaic. Similar with trespasses.   My larger point, however, was merely that what one thinks that one is praying for might
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
            I meant because the word is archaic. Similar with trespasses.
             
            My larger point, however, was merely that what one thinks that one is praying for might depend in part on the translation used.
             
            Are you using the KJV?
             
            Jeffery Hodges

            --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:


            From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] OT: What "those in the pew" think they are praying for
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 2:10 PM


            Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
            > Which translation are you going to use? For instance, a lot of people using the KJV might not even know what "hallowed" means.
            I'm confused.  Are you saying that they wouldn't know what hallowed
            means because the word doesn't appear in the KJV text of Matt. 6:9 or
            because the word itself is archaic?
            >  Or "trespasses." Depending on how the LP is translated, people could have various beliefs, I suspect.
            >   
            It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
            nevertheless say  "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite the LP.

            Jeffrey

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... I understand. And that s why I noted what I did about what one thinks if one assumes that to be hallowed means to be praised . ... No. I m using the
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
              Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
              > I meant because the word is archaic. Similar with trespasses.
              >
              > My larger point, however, was merely that what one thinks that one is praying for might depend in part on the translation used.
              >
              >
              I understand. And that's why I noted what I did about what one thinks
              if one assumes that "to be hallowed" means "to be praised".
              > Are you using the KJV?
              >
              No. I'm using the translation in the Book of Common Prayer. What I'm
              working up is intended to be part of a section in a book on the LP to be
              published in the Anglican sponsored Conversations with Scripture Series.

              Jeffrey

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Bob Schacht
              ... There are denominational cleavages about this. One might even divide the English speaking Protestant churches into the trespass , debts or sin
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
                At 10:10 AM 2/21/2009, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                >Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
                > > Which translation are you going to use? For instance, a lot of people
                > using the KJV might not even know what "hallowed" means.
                >I'm confused. Are you saying that they wouldn't know what hallowed
                >means because the word doesn't appear in the KJV text of Matt. 6:9 or
                >because the word itself is archaic?
                > > Or "trespasses." Depending on how the LP is translated, people could
                > have various beliefs, I suspect.
                > >
                >It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
                >nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite the LP.
                >
                >Jeffrey

                There are denominational cleavages about this. One might even divide the
                English speaking Protestant churches into the "trespass", "debts" or "sin"
                churches, depending on which version of the LP they use. Of course this
                will carry over into other matters, such as which translation of the Bible
                is considered authoritative.

                The Pilgrim Fathers used the Geneva Bible, for example, and its authority
                (including its commentaries) were highly regarded.

                But I think this is getting us rather far afield from the purpose of this
                list.

                Bob Schacht
                University of Hawaii


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Gregory Leiby
                Narrowing down to Anglican will help a little, but with the divisions and controversies (e.g. is there anything wrong with a married man leaving his wife to
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
                  Narrowing down to Anglican will help a little, but with the divisions and controversies (e.g. is there anything wrong with a married man leaving his wife to pursue a sexual relationship?), the answers you get may be very wide ranging.

                  An avenue of research may be to contact some priests and see if they would be willing to recruit some congregants to provide you with some info.

                  Greg

                  _________________________
                  Gregory Leiby
                  Greenville, SC, USA
                  http://www.theleibys.com/


                  --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:

                  > From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [XTalk] OT: What "those in the pew" think they are praying for
                  > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 3:26 PM
                  > Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
                  > > I meant because the word is archaic. Similar with
                  > trespasses.
                  > >
                  > > My larger point, however, was merely that what one
                  > thinks that one is praying for might depend in part on the
                  > translation used.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > I understand. And that's why I noted what I did about
                  > what one thinks
                  > if one assumes that "to be hallowed" means
                  > "to be praised".
                  > > Are you using the KJV?
                  > >
                  > No. I'm using the translation in the Book of Common
                  > Prayer. What I'm
                  > working up is intended to be part of a section in a book on
                  > the LP to be
                  > published in the Anglican sponsored Conversations with
                  > Scripture Series.
                  >
                  > Jeffrey
                  >
                  > --
                  > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  > Chicago, Illinois
                  > e-mail jgibson000@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                  >
                  > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                  > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
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                • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                  Jeffrey: ... I actually don t think most people even think it says may your name be hallowed They think this is a simple statement of fact. Hallowed be
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
                    Jeffrey:

                    Comments below. And based on lots of teaching of the Lord's Prayer. And I might note most recently in a highly educated congregation where I asked, as I often do, what the first three petitions mean:

                    >What they think they are praying for when they say "May your name be
                    >hallowed" is either that God will act in such a way that everyone
                    >will recognize him for the holy being that he is or, working from
                    >the impression that "to be hallowed" means "to be praised", that
                    >all everyone, and not just Christians, will eventually give him the
                    >honour and respect and the kinds of worship he deserves.

                    I actually don't think most people even think it says "may your name be hallowed" They think this is a simple statement of fact. "Hallowed be thy name" means, for most, "your name is holy"

                    > What they think they are praying for when they say "May your kingdom
                    >come" is either a profound inner personal and individualized
                    >experience of God's love, forgiveness, or empowering presence or it
                    >is the hurrying of God's establishment on earth of something that
                    >they have been taught properly belongs to the world's future -- a
                    > promised end of all earthly misery and injustice, a reign of peace
                    >and well being, the experience of heaven on earth.

                    Again, I don't see most translating the KJV or RSV or NRSV to "may your kingdom come". For them the term "thy kingdom come" is either:

                    a. Your kingdom is coming
                    b. Your kingdom has come.


                    mark

                    Mark A. Matson
                    Academic Dean
                    Milligan College
                    http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                  • Gordon Raynal
                    ... Hi Jeffrey, This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it s forgive us our
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
                      On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                      > Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
                      >> Which translation are you going to use? For instance, a lot of
                      >> people using the KJV might not even know what "hallowed" means.
                      > I'm confused. Are you saying that they wouldn't know what hallowed
                      > means because the word doesn't appear in the KJV text of Matt. 6:9 or
                      > because the word itself is archaic?
                      >> Or "trespasses." Depending on how the LP is translated, people
                      >> could have various beliefs, I suspect.
                      >>
                      > It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
                      > nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite the LP.
                      >
                      > Jeffrey

                      Hi Jeffrey,
                      This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
                      heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
                      debts..."
                      Gordon Raynal
                      Inman, SC
                      >
                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      ... And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if they think about it what they are saying at all.? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
                        Gordon Raynal wrote:
                        > On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >> It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
                        >> nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite the LP.
                        >>
                        >> Jeffrey
                        >>
                        >
                        > Hi Jeffrey,
                        > This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
                        > heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
                        > debts..."
                        >
                        And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if they
                        think about it what they are saying at all.?

                        Jeffrey

                        --
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                        Chicago, Illinois
                        e-mail jgibson000@...



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Gordon Raynal
                        Hi Jeffrey, Thinking in church? How often does that happen;)? Seriously, simply a synonym for forgive us our sins. Conservative Calvinism, of course,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
                          Hi Jeffrey,

                          Thinking in church? How often does that happen;)? Seriously, simply
                          a synonym for "forgive us our sins." Conservative Calvinism, of
                          course, focuses on substitutionary atonement and the prayer's first
                          petition is understood to uphold that doctrine and thus include "from
                          the Lord" the call to pray for the forgiveness of sins under that
                          understanding.

                          BTW... when I lead "mixed" funerals here there is always a bit of
                          "saying this"/ "saying that" when the LP is used. You can get a
                          relative head count in a room by who is saying what:)!

                          Gordon Raynal
                          Inman, SC
                          On Feb 23, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                          > Gordon Raynal wrote:
                          >> On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>> It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
                          >>> nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite
                          >>> the LP.
                          >>>
                          >>> Jeffrey
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> Hi Jeffrey,
                          >> This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
                          >> heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
                          >> debts..."
                          >>
                          > And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if
                          > they
                          > think about it what they are saying at all.?
                          >
                          > Jeffrey
                          >
                          > --
                          > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                          > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                          > Chicago, Illinois
                          > e-mail jgibson000@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
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                          >
                          > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
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                          >
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                          >
                        • Gordon Raynal
                          Hi Jeffrey, ... One other point. The Robert Robinson (1758) hymn, Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing uses the debtor language related to the LP with a nice
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 23, 2009
                            Hi Jeffrey,

                            On Feb 23, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                            > Gordon Raynal wrote:
                            >> On Feb 21, 2009, at 3:10 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>> It's my experience that people who regard the KJV as the word of God
                            >>> nevertheless say "forgive us our trespasses" when they recite
                            >>> the LP.
                            >>>
                            >>> Jeffrey
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >> Hi Jeffrey,
                            >> This is certainly true of those from the Anglican/ Methodist Baptist
                            >> heritage, but among American Presbyterian sorts it's "forgive us our
                            >> debts..."
                            >>
                            > And what do they think they are praying for when they say this, if
                            > they
                            > think about it what they are saying at all.?

                            One other point. The Robert Robinson (1758) hymn, "Come, Thou Fount
                            of Every Blessing" uses the debtor language related to the LP with a
                            nice twist in the 3rd verse:
                            "O to grace how great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be! Let that
                            grace now, like a fetter, bind my wandering heart to Thee...."
                            Gordon Raynal
                            Inman, SC
                            >
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