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Re: [XTalk] an eschatological contradiction?

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  • Gordon Raynal
    Hi Jeffrey, ... A nice summation and they were simply wrong:)! The LP is yet another fine example of wisdom affirmations and aphorisms gathered into a very
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 18, 2009
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      Hi Jeffrey,

      On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

      > As I understand things, the thorough-going eschatologists like
      > Weiss and
      > Schweitzer argued that Jesus believed with absolute certainty not
      > only
      > in an extremely imminent end of the age, but that there was nothing
      > that
      > anyone could do to hasten or prevent its arrival.

      A nice summation and they were simply wrong:)! The LP is yet another
      fine example of wisdom affirmations and aphorisms gathered into
      a very here and now appeal.
      >
      > If so, what is the sense of praying for the Kingdom of God to
      > arrive or
      > for the immediate distribution of things that properly belong to
      > the end
      > of the age, as those who believe that the Lord's Prayer is an
      > "eschatological prayer" assert is the aim of the LP?

      It doesn't make any sense to do that. If someone believes that God
      has all this stuff literally lined up and lined out then asking
      others to pray
      for such would be an invitation to annoy God and ask "him" to undo
      what he had already planned out;)!
      >
      > Why pray for the arrival that which is certain to arrive or for the
      > hastening of that which cannot be hastened?

      Would be just plain stupid, wouldn't it;)!
      >
      > Yes, I know that Schweitzer argued that Jesus tried to force the
      > dawning
      > of the Kingdom by going to Jerusalem to "turn the wheel of history".
      > But this, according to Schweitzer, is only after Jesus' certainty
      > of a
      > really imminent dawning of the KoG was called into question and
      > presumably **after** Jesus gave the LP to his disciples.

      One thing you've got to love about Al is that coming to this
      conclusion, he left and went off to practice very here and now
      medicine in a place in
      the world that seriously needed his gifts. It is so interesting that
      so many seemingly devoted to his conclusions try to sweeten them up
      and put
      some kind of patina of success on it.

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC
      >
      >
    • McGrath, James
      Jeffrey, In response to your question, why would it not be possible to hasten or delay the inevitable? If the prayer is more about embracing and participating
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 19, 2009
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        Jeffrey,

        In response to your question, why would it not be possible to hasten or delay the inevitable?

        If the prayer is more about embracing and participating in God's aims rather than changing them, is it not possible to change one's attitute towards the inevitable?

        The reference elsewhere to the time being shortened for the sake of the elect also comes to mind.

        You may be right that the Lord's Prayer is not eschatological. But I'm not persuaded that the line of argument (or rather of rhetorical questions) in your last post demonstrates this. :-)

        Best wishes,

        James

        James F. McGrath
        Associate Professor of Religion
        Butler University
        http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/
        http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com
      • Gregory Leiby
        From a layman s perspective, I always understood it as looking forward in anticipation (and perhaps helping to prepare those praying) rather than compelling
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 19, 2009
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          From a layman's perspective, I always understood it as looking forward in anticipation (and perhaps helping to prepare those praying) rather than compelling God to act.

          A rather poor analogy (in eschatology the day and time is not known) is my kid anticipating Christmas morning. He looks forward to it coming, may even beg and plead for it to come sooner, but it will not happen before the specific date. But in anticipation there is time to prepare (e.g. putting up decorations).

          _________________________
          Gregory Leiby
          Greenville, SC, USA
          http://www.theleibys.com/


          --- On Tue, 2/17/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:

          > From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
          > Subject: [XTalk] an eschatological contradiction?
          > To: "Crosstalk2" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
          > Cc: "NewSynoptic" <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>, "biblical-studies" <biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 7:38 PM
          > As I understand things, the thorough-going eschatologists
          > like Weiss and
          > Schweitzer argued that Jesus believed with absolute
          > certainty not only
          > in an extremely imminent end of the age, but that there was
          > nothing that
          > anyone could do to hasten or prevent its arrival.
          >
          > If so, what is the sense of praying for the Kingdom of God
          > to arrive or
          > for the immediate distribution of things that properly
          > belong to the end
          > of the age, as those who believe that the Lord's Prayer
          > is an
          > "eschatological prayer" assert is the aim of the
          > LP?
          >
          > Why pray for the arrival that which is certain to arrive or
          > for the
          > hastening of that which cannot be hastened?
          >
          > Yes, I know that Schweitzer argued that Jesus tried to
          > force the dawning
          > of the Kingdom by going to Jerusalem to "turn the
          > wheel of history".
          > But this, according to Schweitzer, is only after Jesus'
          > certainty of a
          > really imminent dawning of the KoG was called into question
          > and
          > presumably **after** Jesus gave the LP to his disciples.
          >
          >
          > Jeffrey
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
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        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... So the aim of the prayer -- or at least of the Kingdom petition -- is not to hasten the arrival of the end, but to declare that one (or in this case a
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 19, 2009
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            Gregory Leiby wrote:
            > >From a layman's perspective, I always understood it as looking forward in anticipation (and perhaps helping to prepare those praying) rather than compelling God to act.
            >
            > A rather poor analogy (in eschatology the day and time is not known) is my kid anticipating Christmas morning. He looks forward to it coming, may even beg and plead for it to come sooner, but it will not happen before the specific date. But in anticipation there is time to prepare (e.g. putting up decorations).
            >
            So the aim of the prayer -- or at least of the Kingdom petition -- is
            not to hasten the arrival of the end, but to declare that one (or in
            this case a group) is looking forward to the arrival of the end and is
            prepared to "receive" it?

            Jeffrey
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Theological systems that attempt to combine human free will with divine providence -- such as middle-knowledge theology -- can perhaps account for the
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 19, 2009
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              Theological systems that attempt to combine human free will with divine providence -- such as middle-knowledge theology -- can perhaps account for the 'contradition', but I would need to know more about first-century theological speculation in Judaism before venturing to suggest (or reject) the possibility that Jesus held any such theological views.

              Does Philo have anything to say on the subject of human free will with divine providence?
               
              Jeffery Hodges


              --- On Tue, 2/17/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:

              > From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
              > Subject: [XTalk] an eschatological contradiction?
              > To: "Crosstalk2" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
              > Cc: "NewSynoptic" <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>, "biblical-studies" <biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 7:38 PM
              > As I understand things, the thorough-going eschatologists
              > like Weiss and
              > Schweitzer  argued that Jesus believed with absolute
              > certainty not only
              > in an extremely imminent end of the age, but that there was
              > nothing that
              > anyone could do to hasten or prevent its arrival.
              >
              > If so, what is the sense of praying for the Kingdom of God
              > to arrive or
              > for the immediate distribution of things that properly
              > belong to the end
              > of the age, as those who believe that the Lord's Prayer
              > is an
              > "eschatological prayer" assert is the aim of the
              > LP?
              >
              > Why pray for the arrival that which is certain to arrive or
              > for the
              > hastening of that which cannot be hastened?
              >
              > Yes, I know that Schweitzer argued that Jesus tried to
              > force the dawning
              > of the Kingdom by going to Jerusalem to "turn the
              > wheel of history". 
              > But this, according to Schweitzer, is only after Jesus'
              > certainty of  a
              > really imminent dawning of the KoG was called into question
              > and
              > presumably **after** Jesus gave the LP to his disciples.
              >

              > Jeffrey

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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