Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [XTalk] Origin(s) of the Lord's Prayer

Expand Messages
  • Loren Rosson
    ... Agreed. ... The only one to my knowledge who has suggested the prayer originated with the Baptist is Joan Taylor (see The Immerser: John the Baptist Within
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 30, 2008
      E Bruce Brooks wrote:

      > Given that Jeffrey's arguments have pretty well removed
      > synagogue liturgy (as
      > such) from the possible origins of the LP, we might then
      > see what other sources offer themselves.

      Agreed.

      > POSSIBLE SOURCES
      >
      > 1. [The Gethsemane Prayer.] I note the initial address
      > "Father," which begins the GP (Mk 14:36); also
      > "Thy will be done," which is the conclusion of
      > the GP (also Mk 14:36), and the request "lead us not
      > into temptation," which in
      > a way is implicit in the GP itself, especially if we allow
      > that the threefold
      > repetition of the GP was meant to mirror the threefold
      > Temptations which are described in Mt/Lk, though not
      > in Mk, but which in any case
      > is found in the GP's Markan context (Mk 14:38, "and
      > pray that you may not enter into temptation").

      > 2. [John the Baptist.]... The Lukan immediate
      > context of the LP is surely of
      > interest: "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his
      > disciples" (Lk 11:1). So
      > how did John teach his disciples to pray?...

      > These are just suggestions, and for all I know old ones.
      > If such be the case, I would appreciate a reference
      > to their earlier appearance in the literature.

      The only one to my knowledge who has suggested the prayer originated with the Baptist is Joan Taylor (see The Immerser: John the Baptist Within Second-Temple Judaism, pp 151-153). Because the LP fits John's overall teaching, with close connections between apocalypticism and practical considerations; forgiveness of sins; etc: "It seems likely that much more of John's message has remained than has hitherto been recognized and that it is embedded in the heart of the Christian ethos." (153)

      Of your alternative suggestions (the Gethsemane prayer, the Baptist, the fixed Jewish prayers), it's this one I've been most drawn to. Has anyone besides Taylor argued that the LP originated with John? (Jeffrey?)

      Loren Rosson III
      Nashua NH
      http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com
    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: XTalk In Response To: Loren Rosson On: Origins of LP From: Bruce Thanks for the reference to Joan Taylor s book; I will follow it up as soon as I get
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 30, 2008
        To: XTalk
        In Response To: Loren Rosson
        On: Origins of LP
        From: Bruce

        Thanks for the reference to Joan Taylor's book; I will follow it up as soon as
        I get within reach of a library. Meanwhile, I have the feeling that the phrase
        quoted from it, namely "originated with," might be a little strong. As an
        initial expectation, I would expect to find, not so much a previous "source"
        for the exact wording of the LP ("sources", to my mind, are the bane of NT
        thinking) but one or more conditions or literary sensibilities or rhetorical
        postures which made it easier for the LP to crystallize out within the early
        Jesus Movement in the way that it did, and not in some other way.

        So also with the question of whether the John heritage, which I feel is much
        more important than is usually considered, is "embedded in the heart of the
        Christian ethos." Before we can locate its heart, I should think, we first have
        to identify its body, and it seems to me that this process is still going on.
        In particular, there may be more than one body. Looking at the whole thing from
        the outside, and taking in at least the canonical documents, I find it hard to
        avoid the conclusion that Paul and the early Gospel tradition represent two
        paths that the Jesus movement was simultaneously taking, both of which later
        became canonical, but only one of which eventually became orthodox.

        Don't we see the Gospel trajectory itself becoming increasingly more orthodox,
        with the Word of Paul being annexed to that strand in gLk, and with a
        consistentizing rewrite of earlier tradition in gJn, where not only Jesus, but
        the Baptist, consistently preach nothing but Christ Crucified? If we confine
        ourselves to the earlier Gospel layers, and take note of the ways in which they
        agree in content with the ideas attributable to some of Paul's opponents, I
        think we get something substantially different, and something which preserves
        more of a look into the world as JohnB saw it.

        Anyway, I am grateful for the suggestion, and would be glad of any others.

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts
      • Loren Rosson
        Bruce, Good points about Taylor, and I should also stress that her assumption that the LP is eschatological is precisely what Jeffrey has been calling into
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 30, 2008
          Bruce,

          Good points about Taylor, and I should also stress that her assumption that the LP is eschatological is precisely what Jeffrey has been calling into question. Though I understand the HJ to have been apocalyptic, I'm open to Jeffrey's idea. A here-and-now plea for protection against the evils of "this generaton", and for loyal discipleship, can cohere readily enough with apocalyptic thought even if the plea itself isn't apocalyptic.

          Loren Rosson III
          Nashua NH
          http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... JK Elliott, Did the Lord s Prayer Originate with John the Baptist? TZ 29 ( 1973) 215. Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 30, 2008
            Loren Rosson wrote:
            > E Bruce Brooks wro
            >
            > Of your alternative suggestions (the Gethsemane prayer, the Baptist, the fixed Jewish prayers), it's this one I've been most drawn to. Has anyone besides Taylor argued that the LP originated with John? (Jeffrey?)
            >

            JK Elliott, "Did the Lord's Prayer Originate with John the Baptist?" TZ
            29 ( 1973) 215.

            Jeffrey

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.