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Re: [XTalk] antiquity of prayers in Berakoth 60

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries! * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R. Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation,
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
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      At 01:41 AM 10/9/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
      >Bob Schacht wrote:
      > > At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
      > >
      > >> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
      > >> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
      > >> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
      > >>
      > >> Yours,
      > >>
      > >> Jeffrey
      > >>
      > >
      > > What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
      > > have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
      > > vocabulary typically 5th century?
      > >
      >I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.
      >
      >Does anyone here know of any?

      Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries!
      * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R.
      Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation, Introduction, and New Commentary in
      English; Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes in Hebrew
      by Fellows of the Harry Fischel Institute for Research in Talmud, Jerusalem
      by Jacob David Herzog; R. Obadiah (reviewed by Ralph Marcus in JSTOR, The
      Journal of Religion, Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jan., 1947), pp. 60-61 (review
      consists of 2 pages) Published by:
      <http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ucpress>The
      University of Chicago Press (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1198113)
      * Tractate Berakoth, by , by A. Lukyn Williams, [1921],
      * Berakoth, translated into English with notes, glossary, and indices,
      by Maurice Simon, M.A., under the editorship of Rabbi Dr I. Epstein, B.A.,
      Ph.D., D. Lit.
      * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai, by Jacob David Herzog
      (Translator). (Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes In
      Hebrew by Fellows of Harry Fischel Institute For Research.)
      I don't know if these resources specifically have commentary on Berakoth
      60, or the specifics for the questions at hand, but I'll forward your
      original question to Lew Reich, who used to participate in the discussions
      here.

      Bob Schacht
      University of Hawaii



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I m looking at is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text. Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
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        Bob Schacht wrote:
        > At 01:41 AM 10/9/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
        >
        >> Bob Schacht wrote:
        >>
        >>> At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
        >>>> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
        >>>> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
        >>>>
        >>>> Yours,
        >>>>
        >>>> Jeffrey
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>> What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
        >>> have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
        >>> vocabulary typically 5th century?
        >>>
        >>>
        >> I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.
        >>
        >> Does anyone here know of any?
        >>
        >
        > Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries!
        > * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R.
        > Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation, Introduction, and New Commentary in
        > English; Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes in Hebrew
        > by Fellows of the Harry Fischel Institute for Research in Talmud, Jerusalem
        > by Jacob David Herzog; R. Obadiah (reviewed by Ralph Marcus in JSTOR, The
        > Journal of Religion, Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jan., 1947), pp. 60-61 (review
        > consists of 2 pages) Published by:
        > <http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ucpress>The
        > University of Chicago Press (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1198113)
        > * Tractate Berakoth, by , by A. Lukyn Williams, [1921],
        > * Berakoth, translated into English with notes, glossary, and indices,
        > by Maurice Simon, M.A., under the editorship of Rabbi Dr I. Epstein, B.A.,
        > Ph.D., D. Lit.
        > * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai, by Jacob David Herzog
        > (Translator). (Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes In
        > Hebrew by Fellows of Harry Fischel Institute For Research.)
        > I don't know if these resources specifically have commentary on Berakoth
        > 60, or the specifics for the questions at hand, but I'll forward your
        > original question to Lew Reich, who used to participate in the discussions
        > here.
        >
        >
        Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I'm' looking at
        is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text.

        Jeffrey

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Matson, Mark (Academic)
        Jeffrey: here is one commentary. Unfortunately, no library close to me has it: The Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakot; translated into English for the first
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
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          Jeffrey:

          here is one commentary. Unfortunately, no library close to me has it:


          The Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakot;
          translated into English for the first time, with introduction, commentary, glossary and indices,

          Author(s):

          Cohen, A.; 1887- <http://www2.milligan.edu/WebZ/FSQUERY?searchtype=hotauthors:format=BI:numrecs=10:dbname=WorldCat::termh1=Cohen%5C%2C+A.:indexh1=pn%3D:termh2=1887-:indexh2=pn%3D:operatorh1=AND:sessionid=fsapp8-41367-fm43p1pd-hne0us:entitypagenum=6:0:next=html/records.html:bad=error/badsearch.html> ; (Abraham),; tr.
          Publication: Cambridge [Eng.] University Press,
          Year: 1921
          Description: xxxix, [1], 460 p. 23 cm.
          Language: English
          Standard No: LCCN: 21-21403
          Class Descriptors: LC: BM500 <http://www2.milligan.edu/WebZ/FSQUERY?sessionid=fsapp8-41367-fm43p1pd-hne0us:entitypagenum=6:0:next=html/records.html:bad=html/records.html:format=BI:numrecs=10:indexh1=:termh1=lc%3ABM500:dbname=WorldCat:searchtype=hotlc>

          Mark A. Matson
          Academic Dean
          Milligan College
          http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

          Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I'm' looking at
          is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text.

          Jeffrey

          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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