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Re: [XTalk] antiquity of prayers in Berakoth 60

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 8, 2008
      At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
      >Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
      >believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
      >prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
      >
      >Yours,
      >
      >Jeffrey

      What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
      have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
      vocabulary typically 5th century?

      Bob Schacht


      >Berakoth 60b (according to Jews' College (London) translation of the
      >Babylonian Talmud, Isidore Epstein, ed.)
      >
      >On going to bed one says from 'Hear, oh Israel' to 'And it shall come to
      >pass if ye hearken diligently'. Then he says: 'Blessed is He who causes
      >the bands of sleep to fall upon my eyes and slumber on my eyelids, and
      >gives light to the apple of the eye. May it be Thy will, O Lord, my God,
      >to make me lie down in peace, and set my portion in Thy law and accustom
      >me to the performance of religious duties, but do not accustom me to
      >transgression; and bring me not into sin, or into iniquity, or into
      >temptation, or into contempt. And may the good inclination have sway
      >over me and let not the evil inclination have sway over me. And deliver
      >me from evil hap and sore diseases, and let not evil dreams and evil
      >thoughts disturb me, and may my couch be flawless before Thee, and
      >enlighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death. Blessed art Thou,
      >oh Lord, who givest light to the whole world in Thy glory.'4
      >
      >When he washes his face he should say: 'Blessed is He who has removed
      >the bands of sleep from mine eyes and slumber from mine eyes. And may it
      >be Thy will O Lord, my God, to habituate me to Thy law and make me
      >cleave to Thy commandments, and do not bring me into sin, or into
      >iniquity, or into temptation, or into contempt, and bend my inclination
      >to be subservient unto Thee, and remove me far from a bad man and a bad
      >companion, and make me cleave to the good inclination and to a good
      >companion in Thy world, and let me obtain this day and every day grace,
      >favour, and mercy in Thine eyes, and in the eyes of all that see me, and
      >show lovingkindness unto me. Blessed art Thou, O Lord, who bestowest
      >lovingkindness upon Thy people Israel'.7
      >
      >--
      >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      >Chicago, Illinois
      >e-mail jgibson000@...
      >
      >
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text. Does anyone here know of any? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W.
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
        Bob Schacht wrote:
        > At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
        >
        >> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
        >> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
        >> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
        >>
        >> Yours,
        >>
        >> Jeffrey
        >>
        >
        > What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
        > have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
        > vocabulary typically 5th century?
        >
        I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.

        Does anyone here know of any?

        Jeffrey

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Schacht
        ... Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries! * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R. Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation,
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
          At 01:41 AM 10/9/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
          >Bob Schacht wrote:
          > > At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
          > >
          > >> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
          > >> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
          > >> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
          > >>
          > >> Yours,
          > >>
          > >> Jeffrey
          > >>
          > >
          > > What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
          > > have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
          > > vocabulary typically 5th century?
          > >
          >I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.
          >
          >Does anyone here know of any?

          Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries!
          * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R.
          Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation, Introduction, and New Commentary in
          English; Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes in Hebrew
          by Fellows of the Harry Fischel Institute for Research in Talmud, Jerusalem
          by Jacob David Herzog; R. Obadiah (reviewed by Ralph Marcus in JSTOR, The
          Journal of Religion, Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jan., 1947), pp. 60-61 (review
          consists of 2 pages) Published by:
          <http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ucpress>The
          University of Chicago Press (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1198113)
          * Tractate Berakoth, by , by A. Lukyn Williams, [1921],
          * Berakoth, translated into English with notes, glossary, and indices,
          by Maurice Simon, M.A., under the editorship of Rabbi Dr I. Epstein, B.A.,
          Ph.D., D. Lit.
          * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai, by Jacob David Herzog
          (Translator). (Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes In
          Hebrew by Fellows of Harry Fischel Institute For Research.)
          I don't know if these resources specifically have commentary on Berakoth
          60, or the specifics for the questions at hand, but I'll forward your
          original question to Lew Reich, who used to participate in the discussions
          here.

          Bob Schacht
          University of Hawaii



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I m looking at is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text. Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
            Bob Schacht wrote:
            > At 01:41 AM 10/9/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
            >
            >> Bob Schacht wrote:
            >>
            >>> At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
            >>>> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
            >>>> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
            >>>>
            >>>> Yours,
            >>>>
            >>>> Jeffrey
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>> What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
            >>> have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
            >>> vocabulary typically 5th century?
            >>>
            >>>
            >> I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.
            >>
            >> Does anyone here know of any?
            >>
            >
            > Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries!
            > * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R.
            > Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation, Introduction, and New Commentary in
            > English; Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes in Hebrew
            > by Fellows of the Harry Fischel Institute for Research in Talmud, Jerusalem
            > by Jacob David Herzog; R. Obadiah (reviewed by Ralph Marcus in JSTOR, The
            > Journal of Religion, Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jan., 1947), pp. 60-61 (review
            > consists of 2 pages) Published by:
            > <http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ucpress>The
            > University of Chicago Press (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1198113)
            > * Tractate Berakoth, by , by A. Lukyn Williams, [1921],
            > * Berakoth, translated into English with notes, glossary, and indices,
            > by Maurice Simon, M.A., under the editorship of Rabbi Dr I. Epstein, B.A.,
            > Ph.D., D. Lit.
            > * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai, by Jacob David Herzog
            > (Translator). (Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes In
            > Hebrew by Fellows of Harry Fischel Institute For Research.)
            > I don't know if these resources specifically have commentary on Berakoth
            > 60, or the specifics for the questions at hand, but I'll forward your
            > original question to Lew Reich, who used to participate in the discussions
            > here.
            >
            >
            Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I'm' looking at
            is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text.

            Jeffrey

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Matson, Mark (Academic)
            Jeffrey: here is one commentary. Unfortunately, no library close to me has it: The Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakot; translated into English for the first
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
              Jeffrey:

              here is one commentary. Unfortunately, no library close to me has it:


              The Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakot;
              translated into English for the first time, with introduction, commentary, glossary and indices,

              Author(s):

              Cohen, A.; 1887- <http://www2.milligan.edu/WebZ/FSQUERY?searchtype=hotauthors:format=BI:numrecs=10:dbname=WorldCat::termh1=Cohen%5C%2C+A.:indexh1=pn%3D:termh2=1887-:indexh2=pn%3D:operatorh1=AND:sessionid=fsapp8-41367-fm43p1pd-hne0us:entitypagenum=6:0:next=html/records.html:bad=error/badsearch.html> ; (Abraham),; tr.
              Publication: Cambridge [Eng.] University Press,
              Year: 1921
              Description: xxxix, [1], 460 p. 23 cm.
              Language: English
              Standard No: LCCN: 21-21403
              Class Descriptors: LC: BM500 <http://www2.milligan.edu/WebZ/FSQUERY?sessionid=fsapp8-41367-fm43p1pd-hne0us:entitypagenum=6:0:next=html/records.html:bad=html/records.html:format=BI:numrecs=10:indexh1=:termh1=lc%3ABM500:dbname=WorldCat:searchtype=hotlc>

              Mark A. Matson
              Academic Dean
              Milligan College
              http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

              Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I'm' looking at
              is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text.

              Jeffrey

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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