Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

antiquity of prayers in Berakoth 60

Expand Messages
  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    Forgive me if I ve asked this before, but do we have any reason to believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following prayers now found in BT
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 8, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
      believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
      prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?

      Yours,

      Jeffrey

      Berakoth 60b (according to Jews' College (London) translation of the
      Babylonian Talmud, Isidore Epstein, ed.)

      On going to bed one says from 'Hear, oh Israel' to 'And it shall come to
      pass if ye hearken diligently'. Then he says: 'Blessed is He who causes
      the bands of sleep to fall upon my eyes and slumber on my eyelids, and
      gives light to the apple of the eye. May it be Thy will, O Lord, my God,
      to make me lie down in peace, and set my portion in Thy law and accustom
      me to the performance of religious duties, but do not accustom me to
      transgression; and bring me not into sin, or into iniquity, or into
      temptation, or into contempt. And may the good inclination have sway
      over me and let not the evil inclination have sway over me. And deliver
      me from evil hap and sore diseases, and let not evil dreams and evil
      thoughts disturb me, and may my couch be flawless before Thee, and
      enlighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death. Blessed art Thou,
      oh Lord, who givest light to the whole world in Thy glory.'4

      When he washes his face he should say: 'Blessed is He who has removed
      the bands of sleep from mine eyes and slumber from mine eyes. And may it
      be Thy will O Lord, my God, to habituate me to Thy law and make me
      cleave to Thy commandments, and do not bring me into sin, or into
      iniquity, or into temptation, or into contempt, and bend my inclination
      to be subservient unto Thee, and remove me far from a bad man and a bad
      companion, and make me cleave to the good inclination and to a good
      companion in Thy world, and let me obtain this day and every day grace,
      favour, and mercy in Thine eyes, and in the eyes of all that see me, and
      show lovingkindness unto me. Blessed art Thou, O Lord, who bestowest
      lovingkindness upon Thy people Israel'.7

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
      Without looking at it closely (which I will tomorrow), it would seem to have no obvious reasons for thinking it early. There seems to be no direct attestation
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 8, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Without looking at it closely (which I will tomorrow), it would seem to have no obvious reasons for thinking it early. There seems to be no direct attestation to any Tannaitic source (and i don't see even a specific Amoraic reference), which is the best reason one usually has to think it may be early. With or no Tannaitic citation, I think we have to assume it is more likely to be reflective of the approximate time of the composition of the completed Talmud, circa 500 C.E. Granted it might be reflective of some years of developing tradition... but who knows?

        Mark A. Matson
        Academic Dean
        Milligan College
        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

        ________________________________

        From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jeffrey B. Gibson
        Sent: Wed 10/8/2008 7:44 PM
        To: Crosstalk2
        Subject: [XTalk] antiquity of prayers in Berakoth 60



        Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
        believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
        prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?

        Yours,

        Jeffrey

        Berakoth 60b (according to Jews' College (London) translation of the
        Babylonian Talmud, Isidore Epstein, ed.)

        On going to bed one says from 'Hear, oh Israel' to 'And it shall come to
        pass if ye hearken diligently'. Then he says: 'Blessed is He who causes
        the bands of sleep to fall upon my eyes and slumber on my eyelids, and
        gives light to the apple of the eye. May it be Thy will, O Lord, my God,
        to make me lie down in peace, and set my portion in Thy law and accustom
        me to the performance of religious duties, but do not accustom me to
        transgression; and bring me not into sin, or into iniquity, or into
        temptation, or into contempt. And may the good inclination have sway
        over me and let not the evil inclination have sway over me. And deliver
        me from evil hap and sore diseases, and let not evil dreams and evil
        thoughts disturb me, and may my couch be flawless before Thee, and
        enlighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death. Blessed art Thou,
        oh Lord, who givest light to the whole world in Thy glory.'4

        When he washes his face he should say: 'Blessed is He who has removed
        the bands of sleep from mine eyes and slumber from mine eyes. And may it
        be Thy will O Lord, my God, to habituate me to Thy law and make me
        cleave to Thy commandments, and do not bring me into sin, or into
        iniquity, or into temptation, or into contempt, and bend my inclination
        to be subservient unto Thee, and remove me far from a bad man and a bad
        companion, and make me cleave to the good inclination and to a good
        companion in Thy world, and let me obtain this day and every day grace,
        favour, and mercy in Thine eyes, and in the eyes of all that see me, and
        show lovingkindness unto me. Blessed art Thou, O Lord, who bestowest
        lovingkindness upon Thy people Israel'.7

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...



        ------------------------------------

        The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

        To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

        To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com

        Yahoo! Groups Links







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Schacht
        ... What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 8, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
          >Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
          >believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
          >prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
          >
          >Yours,
          >
          >Jeffrey

          What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
          have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
          vocabulary typically 5th century?

          Bob Schacht


          >Berakoth 60b (according to Jews' College (London) translation of the
          >Babylonian Talmud, Isidore Epstein, ed.)
          >
          >On going to bed one says from 'Hear, oh Israel' to 'And it shall come to
          >pass if ye hearken diligently'. Then he says: 'Blessed is He who causes
          >the bands of sleep to fall upon my eyes and slumber on my eyelids, and
          >gives light to the apple of the eye. May it be Thy will, O Lord, my God,
          >to make me lie down in peace, and set my portion in Thy law and accustom
          >me to the performance of religious duties, but do not accustom me to
          >transgression; and bring me not into sin, or into iniquity, or into
          >temptation, or into contempt. And may the good inclination have sway
          >over me and let not the evil inclination have sway over me. And deliver
          >me from evil hap and sore diseases, and let not evil dreams and evil
          >thoughts disturb me, and may my couch be flawless before Thee, and
          >enlighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death. Blessed art Thou,
          >oh Lord, who givest light to the whole world in Thy glory.'4
          >
          >When he washes his face he should say: 'Blessed is He who has removed
          >the bands of sleep from mine eyes and slumber from mine eyes. And may it
          >be Thy will O Lord, my God, to habituate me to Thy law and make me
          >cleave to Thy commandments, and do not bring me into sin, or into
          >iniquity, or into temptation, or into contempt, and bend my inclination
          >to be subservient unto Thee, and remove me far from a bad man and a bad
          >companion, and make me cleave to the good inclination and to a good
          >companion in Thy world, and let me obtain this day and every day grace,
          >favour, and mercy in Thine eyes, and in the eyes of all that see me, and
          >show lovingkindness unto me. Blessed art Thou, O Lord, who bestowest
          >lovingkindness upon Thy people Israel'.7
          >
          >--
          >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          >Chicago, Illinois
          >e-mail jgibson000@...
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
          >
          >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text. Does anyone here know of any? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W.
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Bob Schacht wrote:
            > At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
            >
            >> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
            >> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
            >> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
            >>
            >> Yours,
            >>
            >> Jeffrey
            >>
            >
            > What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
            > have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
            > vocabulary typically 5th century?
            >
            I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.

            Does anyone here know of any?

            Jeffrey

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bob Schacht
            ... Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries! * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R. Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation,
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              At 01:41 AM 10/9/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
              >Bob Schacht wrote:
              > > At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
              > >
              > >> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
              > >> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
              > >> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
              > >>
              > >> Yours,
              > >>
              > >> Jeffrey
              > >>
              > >
              > > What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
              > > have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
              > > vocabulary typically 5th century?
              > >
              >I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.
              >
              >Does anyone here know of any?

              Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries!
              * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R.
              Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation, Introduction, and New Commentary in
              English; Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes in Hebrew
              by Fellows of the Harry Fischel Institute for Research in Talmud, Jerusalem
              by Jacob David Herzog; R. Obadiah (reviewed by Ralph Marcus in JSTOR, The
              Journal of Religion, Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jan., 1947), pp. 60-61 (review
              consists of 2 pages) Published by:
              <http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ucpress>The
              University of Chicago Press (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1198113)
              * Tractate Berakoth, by , by A. Lukyn Williams, [1921],
              * Berakoth, translated into English with notes, glossary, and indices,
              by Maurice Simon, M.A., under the editorship of Rabbi Dr I. Epstein, B.A.,
              Ph.D., D. Lit.
              * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai, by Jacob David Herzog
              (Translator). (Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes In
              Hebrew by Fellows of Harry Fischel Institute For Research.)
              I don't know if these resources specifically have commentary on Berakoth
              60, or the specifics for the questions at hand, but I'll forward your
              original question to Lew Reich, who used to participate in the discussions
              here.

              Bob Schacht
              University of Hawaii



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
              ... Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I m looking at is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text. Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Bob Schacht wrote:
                > At 01:41 AM 10/9/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                >
                >> Bob Schacht wrote:
                >>
                >>> At 01:44 PM 10/8/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>> Forgive me if I've asked this before, but do we have any reason to
                >>>> believe, as J. Jeremias seems to think we do, that the following
                >>>> prayers now found in BT Berakoth 60b go back to the first century CE?
                >>>>
                >>>> Yours,
                >>>>
                >>>> Jeffrey
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>> What do the commentaries say about the original language in the text we
                >>> have? Are there archaisms? or are all the elements of grammar, syntax and
                >>> vocabulary typically 5th century?
                >>>
                >>>
                >> I am at this point unaware that there **are** commentaries on this text.
                >>
                >> Does anyone here know of any?
                >>
                >
                > Commentaries? Of course there are commentaries!
                > * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai; Text with Commentary of R.
                > Obadiah of Bertinoro; Translation, Introduction, and New Commentary in
                > English; Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes in Hebrew
                > by Fellows of the Harry Fischel Institute for Research in Talmud, Jerusalem
                > by Jacob David Herzog; R. Obadiah (reviewed by Ralph Marcus in JSTOR, The
                > Journal of Religion, Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jan., 1947), pp. 60-61 (review
                > consists of 2 pages) Published by:
                > <http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=ucpress>The
                > University of Chicago Press (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1198113)
                > * Tractate Berakoth, by , by A. Lukyn Williams, [1921],
                > * Berakoth, translated into English with notes, glossary, and indices,
                > by Maurice Simon, M.A., under the editorship of Rabbi Dr I. Epstein, B.A.,
                > Ph.D., D. Lit.
                > * The Mishnah: Berakoth, Peah, Demai, by Jacob David Herzog
                > (Translator). (Variant Readings, References, and Short Exegetical Notes In
                > Hebrew by Fellows of Harry Fischel Institute For Research.)
                > I don't know if these resources specifically have commentary on Berakoth
                > 60, or the specifics for the questions at hand, but I'll forward your
                > original question to Lew Reich, who used to participate in the discussions
                > here.
                >
                >
                Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I'm' looking at
                is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text.

                Jeffrey

                --
                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                Chicago, Illinois
                e-mail jgibson000@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                Jeffrey: here is one commentary. Unfortunately, no library close to me has it: The Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakot; translated into English for the first
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 9, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jeffrey:

                  here is one commentary. Unfortunately, no library close to me has it:


                  The Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakot;
                  translated into English for the first time, with introduction, commentary, glossary and indices,

                  Author(s):

                  Cohen, A.; 1887- <http://www2.milligan.edu/WebZ/FSQUERY?searchtype=hotauthors:format=BI:numrecs=10:dbname=WorldCat::termh1=Cohen%5C%2C+A.:indexh1=pn%3D:termh2=1887-:indexh2=pn%3D:operatorh1=AND:sessionid=fsapp8-41367-fm43p1pd-hne0us:entitypagenum=6:0:next=html/records.html:bad=error/badsearch.html> ; (Abraham),; tr.
                  Publication: Cambridge [Eng.] University Press,
                  Year: 1921
                  Description: xxxix, [1], 460 p. 23 cm.
                  Language: English
                  Standard No: LCCN: 21-21403
                  Class Descriptors: LC: BM500 <http://www2.milligan.edu/WebZ/FSQUERY?sessionid=fsapp8-41367-fm43p1pd-hne0us:entitypagenum=6:0:next=html/records.html:bad=html/records.html:format=BI:numrecs=10:indexh1=:termh1=lc%3ABM500:dbname=WorldCat:searchtype=hotlc>

                  Mark A. Matson
                  Academic Dean
                  Milligan College
                  http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                  Thanks for this. But please note that the Berakoth text I'm' looking at
                  is the Talmudic, not the Mishnaic text.

                  Jeffrey

                  --
                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  Chicago, Illinois
                  e-mail jgibson000@...



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                  ------------------------------------

                  The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

                  To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com

                  Yahoo! Groups Links






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.