Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XTalk] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP

Expand Messages
  • Bob MacDonald
    Jeffrey I hate to do this to you, but I am putting my questions and notes on Reif on my blog. It may be a place which real scholars might like to avoid or at
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 5, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Jeffrey

      I hate to do this to you, but I am putting my questions and notes on
      Reif on my blog. It may be a place which real scholars might like to
      avoid or at least not be seen. But it's one of the places where I
      learn by close reading and note taking.

      two entries so far - if you do respond, you may keep me on track.
      http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2008/10/judaism-and-hebrew-prayer-stefan-reif.html
      http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2008/10/judaism-and-hebrew-prayer-2.html


      Bob
      Bob MacDonald
      http://stenagmois.blogspot.com
    • Gregory Leiby
      Search Judaism and Hebrew Prayer on Google Books (http://books.google.com).
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 6, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Search "Judaism and Hebrew Prayer" on Google Books (http://books.google.com).

        http://books.google.com/books?id=2CGKCuOL1c0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Judaism+and+Hebrew+Prayer%22&lr=lang_en&num=100&sig=ACfU3U2YCA5Tryqsif6IsTi8qXdelqddmQ#PPP1,M1

        -Greg
        _________________________
        Gregory Leiby
        Greenville, SC, USA
        http://www.theleibys.com/


        --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

        > From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
        > Subject: Re: [XTalk] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
        > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 7:02 PM
        > I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created
        > it offline
        > so I wouldn't lose it. Here it is to the list.
        > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B.
        > Gibson"
        > > Any chance of a scan of the chapter?
        > > Jeffrey
        > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        > > Chicago, Illinois
        > > e-mail jgibson000@...
        >
        > Jeffrey - I don't think a scan would be possible -
        > given both
        > copyright and the technological awkwardness - 30 pages +
        > end-notes
        >
        > I could loan you the book at the address in your signature
        > - but it
        > would take some time to get to you. I will read the chapter
        > first and
        > see if there are nuggets worth the snail mail...
        >
        > I will pay particular attention to what he ways about the 5
        > assumptions you are questioning and will report back at
        > minimum.
        >
        > Here's my precis of the 5:
        >
        > 1. that Jesus not only came from a people who 'knew how
        > to pray' but
        > that his understanding of the forms and language in which
        > prayer
        > should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by ...
        > "sacred
        > association".
        > 2. that in the first century the Galilean synagogue had an
        > established
        > liturgy.
        > 3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer
        > played
        > prominent parts within it
        > 4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological
        > 5. that there are resemblances between the form and
        > language and that
        > these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.
        >
        > And here's a further reduction
        > 1. they knew how to pray and Jesus learned from that
        > pattern
        > 2. established liturgy a. containing precursors to what we
        > know, b.
        > eschatological, c. too close for conincidence
        >
        > It is curious that your 5 reduce to 2 + 3 subordinates -
        > and the
        > second is a precondition for the truth of the first...
        >
        > So I will look for where Reif infers or challenges the
        > assumption of
        > established knowledge and forms that could have influenced
        > a person in
        > Galilee in the first century.
        >
        > Towards the end of chapter 3 (page 50) Reif has one
        > paragraph on the
        > LP just below an interesting one that mentions Orpheus - I
        > couldn't
        > help noticing since we are listening to Monteverdi's
        > Orpheo this
        > afternoon :)
        >
        > The prior page is all about Angelic Liturgy - fascinating -
        > this may
        > give a reason for the opening of Hebrews. I really should
        > read this
        > book more closely !
        >
        > Here's context + the short para on the LP - it will
        > give you some
        > insight into the nature of his writing.
        > ---------
        > ... the masterful music in praise of God has even been
        > identified as
        > the inspiration for one of the psalms in the Psalms Scroll
        > and
        > described by Flusser (Psalms, Hymns and Prayers and the
        > views of M.
        > Weinfeld and R. Brody in Tarbiz 45(1975-76), pp 15-26,
        > 48(1979) pp
        > 186-200; 51(1982), pp 493-96.) as a counterpart of the
        > talent of the
        > Greek musician Orpheus as known in Jewish and early
        > Christian art.
        >
        > It is no new theory to associate advances in Jewish
        > attitudes to
        > prayer and later rabbinic developments with such sects.
        > Kaufmann
        > Kohler (Ueber die Urspr√ľnge und Grundformen der
        > Synagogalen Liturgie
        > MGWJ 37 (1893) pp 441-51 and 489-97. See also his articles
        > on
        > Didascalie, Essenes, and Liturgy in the Jewish Encyclopedia
        > + long
        > citations... ) already made the connection with the Essenes
        > almost a
        > century ago. Certainly the Qumran scrolls provide the
        > earliest
        > testimony to liturgical formulations of a communal nature
        > designated
        > for particular occasions and conducted in a centre totally
        > independent
        > of Jerusalem and the Temple, making use of terminology and
        > theological
        > concepts that were later to become dominant in Jewish and,
        > in some
        > cases, Christian prayer. Such texts recorded in Luke
        > 1:68-79 and 2:25
        > and the 'Lord's Prayer' (Matthew 6:14-15) are
        > continuations of the
        > expression of personal prayer found in earlier generations
        > and may
        > also owe some of their apparent centrality to attitudes
        > cultivated by
        > such groups as the Qumran sect. But sufficient evidence has
        > already
        > been cited from other sources to make it clear that such
        > influences,
        > while clearly significant, were by no means the only ones,
        > and that
        > the background for later developments has to be sought in a
        > much wider
        > context.
        > ------------
        >
        > That's it for his references to the NT.
        >
        > (Alas - what would we do if our vision were reduced to the
        > eyes of our
        > students! I typed this out to see how hard this book is to
        > read - It
        > is as I remember it - thick, but not yet as rewarding as
        > chewing on
        > the thick words of for example, Rowan Williams.)
        >
        > (Don't fail me - I may yet pass the exam!)
        >
        > Bob
        > Bob MacDonald
        > http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
        >
        > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
        > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
        > crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > List managers may be contacted directly at:
        > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.