Re: [XTalk] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
I hate to do this to you, but I am putting my questions and notes on
Reif on my blog. It may be a place which real scholars might like to
avoid or at least not be seen. But it's one of the places where I
learn by close reading and note taking.
two entries so far - if you do respond, you may keep me on track.
- Search "Judaism and Hebrew Prayer" on Google Books (http://books.google.com).
Greenville, SC, USA
--- On Sat, 10/4/08, Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
> From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
> Subject: Re: [XTalk] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
> To: email@example.com
> Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 7:02 PM
> I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created
> it offline
> so I wouldn't lose it. Here it is to the list.
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Jeffrey B.
> > Any chance of a scan of the chapter?
> > Jeffrey
> Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
> > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
> > Chicago, Illinois
> > e-mail jgibson000@...
> Jeffrey - I don't think a scan would be possible -
> given both
> copyright and the technological awkwardness - 30 pages +
> I could loan you the book at the address in your signature
> - but it
> would take some time to get to you. I will read the chapter
> first and
> see if there are nuggets worth the snail mail...
> I will pay particular attention to what he ways about the 5
> assumptions you are questioning and will report back at
> Here's my precis of the 5:
> 1. that Jesus not only came from a people who 'knew how
> to pray' but
> that his understanding of the forms and language in which
> should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by ...
> 2. that in the first century the Galilean synagogue had an
> 3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer
> prominent parts within it
> 4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological
> 5. that there are resemblances between the form and
> language and that
> these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.
> And here's a further reduction
> 1. they knew how to pray and Jesus learned from that
> 2. established liturgy a. containing precursors to what we
> know, b.
> eschatological, c. too close for conincidence
> It is curious that your 5 reduce to 2 + 3 subordinates -
> and the
> second is a precondition for the truth of the first...
> So I will look for where Reif infers or challenges the
> assumption of
> established knowledge and forms that could have influenced
> a person in
> Galilee in the first century.
> Towards the end of chapter 3 (page 50) Reif has one
> paragraph on the
> LP just below an interesting one that mentions Orpheus - I
> help noticing since we are listening to Monteverdi's
> Orpheo this
> afternoon :)
> The prior page is all about Angelic Liturgy - fascinating -
> this may
> give a reason for the opening of Hebrews. I really should
> read this
> book more closely !
> Here's context + the short para on the LP - it will
> give you some
> insight into the nature of his writing.
> ... the masterful music in praise of God has even been
> identified as
> the inspiration for one of the psalms in the Psalms Scroll
> described by Flusser (Psalms, Hymns and Prayers and the
> views of M.
> Weinfeld and R. Brody in Tarbiz 45(1975-76), pp 15-26,
> 48(1979) pp
> 186-200; 51(1982), pp 493-96.) as a counterpart of the
> talent of the
> Greek musician Orpheus as known in Jewish and early
> Christian art.
> It is no new theory to associate advances in Jewish
> attitudes to
> prayer and later rabbinic developments with such sects.
> Kohler (Ueber die Ursprünge und Grundformen der
> Synagogalen Liturgie
> MGWJ 37 (1893) pp 441-51 and 489-97. See also his articles
> Didascalie, Essenes, and Liturgy in the Jewish Encyclopedia
> + long
> citations... ) already made the connection with the Essenes
> almost a
> century ago. Certainly the Qumran scrolls provide the
> testimony to liturgical formulations of a communal nature
> for particular occasions and conducted in a centre totally
> of Jerusalem and the Temple, making use of terminology and
> concepts that were later to become dominant in Jewish and,
> in some
> cases, Christian prayer. Such texts recorded in Luke
> 1:68-79 and 2:25
> and the 'Lord's Prayer' (Matthew 6:14-15) are
> continuations of the
> expression of personal prayer found in earlier generations
> and may
> also owe some of their apparent centrality to attitudes
> cultivated by
> such groups as the Qumran sect. But sufficient evidence has
> been cited from other sources to make it clear that such
> while clearly significant, were by no means the only ones,
> and that
> the background for later developments has to be sought in a
> much wider
> That's it for his references to the NT.
> (Alas - what would we do if our vision were reduced to the
> eyes of our
> students! I typed this out to see how hard this book is to
> read - It
> is as I remember it - thick, but not yet as rewarding as
> chewing on
> the thick words of for example, Rowan Williams.)
> (Don't fail me - I may yet pass the exam!)
> Bob MacDonald
> The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
> To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
> List managers may be contacted directly at:
> Yahoo! Groups Links