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Re: [XTalk] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP

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  • Bob MacDonald
    ... Jeffrey - you make me take up a long-paragraphed book in my library that I got stuck in years ago - Judaism and Hebrew Prayer by Stefan Reif CUP 1993 He
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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      --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
      <jgibson000@...> wrote:
      >
      > Was I not clear that the five assumptions I noted are not mine?
      >
      > Jeffrey
      >
      > --
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > Chicago, Illinois
      > e-mail jgibson000@...
      >
      Jeffrey - you make me take up a long-paragraphed book in my library
      that I got stuck in years ago - Judaism and Hebrew Prayer by Stefan
      Reif CUP 1993

      He has specific criticisms in chapter 3 of these assumptions and their
      extreme opposite that the prayers post 70 were all radically new - I
      can't comment further without rereading it - but maybe you have this
      book available to you

      Bob

      Bob MacDonald
      http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Thanks for this. I am aware that Reif has issued such a challenge. But unfortunately, I do not have the book available to me -- at least not immediately.
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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        Bob MacDonald wrote:
        > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
        > <jgibson000@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Was I not clear that the five assumptions I noted are not mine?
        >>
        >> Jeffrey
        >>
        >> --
        >> Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        >> 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        >> Chicago, Illinois
        >> e-mail jgibson000@...
        >>
        >>
        > Jeffrey - you make me take up a long-paragraphed book in my library
        > that I got stuck in years ago - Judaism and Hebrew Prayer by Stefan
        > Reif CUP 1993
        >
        > He has specific criticisms in chapter 3 of these assumptions and their
        > extreme opposite that the prayers post 70 were all radically new - I
        > can't comment further without rereading it - but maybe you have this
        > book available to you
        >
        Thanks for this.

        I am aware that Reif has issued such a challenge. But unfortunately, I
        do not have the book available to me -- at least not immediately.

        Any chance of a scan of the chapter?

        Jeffrey


        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Bob Schacht
        ... OK, Jeffrey, I plead guilty. I think my problem was with your lead sentence, which weighs in at more than 100 words. By the time I got to the end of the
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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          At 09:00 AM 10/4/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:



          >Wow. That's two people who have misread what I wrote!
          >
          >Actually all I'm doing is noting what **others** - especially those who
          >see the LP as an eschatological prayer -- assume when the claim that the
          >matrix of the LP is the synagogal liturgy. This is part of a set up to
          >bring into question the validity of the synagogal matrix -- and the
          >eschatological -- view of the prayer.

          OK, Jeffrey, I plead guilty. I think my problem was with your lead
          sentence, which weighs in at more than 100 words. By the time I got to the
          end of the sentence, I forgot the orientation you gave it at the beginning.
          I suggest two remedies:
          (1) Remove the "and especially..." insertion from the lead sentence and let
          it stand on its own as a second sentence.
          (2) Insert a reference at the end of the first line "(e.g., Bartley and
          Stuart, 1903)"
          (3) Remind the reader in the third sentence by inserting a few words, e.g.
          "The claim these commenters make is grounded in five assumptions."

          This doesn't actually change anything you wrote, but it helps the reader
          follow your argument.

          Bob Schacht



          >Here is an abstract of what I'll be arguing:
          >
          > This paper challenges the validity of two claims made by many
          > commentators on the Lord's Prayer (1) that the thematic and
          > theological matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which its
          > form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it
          > are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more
          > particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the
          > Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer; and (2) that the assumption of such
          > a matrix for the Lord's Prayer necessarily entails that the prayer
          > be seen as "eschatological" in orientation and aim.
          >
          >
          >
          >Was I not clear that the five assumptions I noted are not mine?
          >
          >Jeffrey
          >
          >--
          >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          >Chicago, Illinois
          >e-mail jgibson000@...
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bob MacDonald
          I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created it offline so I wouldn t lose it. Here it is to the list. ... Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) ...
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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            I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created it offline
            so I wouldn't lose it. Here it is to the list.
            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
            > Any chance of a scan of the chapter?
            > Jeffrey
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            > Chicago, Illinois
            > e-mail jgibson000@...

            Jeffrey - I don't think a scan would be possible - given both
            copyright and the technological awkwardness - 30 pages + end-notes

            I could loan you the book at the address in your signature - but it
            would take some time to get to you. I will read the chapter first and
            see if there are nuggets worth the snail mail...

            I will pay particular attention to what he ways about the 5
            assumptions you are questioning and will report back at minimum.

            Here's my precis of the 5:

            1. that Jesus not only came from a people who 'knew how to pray' but
            that his understanding of the forms and language in which prayer
            should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by ... "sacred
            association".
            2. that in the first century the Galilean synagogue had an established
            liturgy.
            3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer played
            prominent parts within it
            4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological
            5. that there are resemblances between the form and language and that
            these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.

            And here's a further reduction
            1. they knew how to pray and Jesus learned from that pattern
            2. established liturgy a. containing precursors to what we know, b.
            eschatological, c. too close for conincidence

            It is curious that your 5 reduce to 2 + 3 subordinates - and the
            second is a precondition for the truth of the first...

            So I will look for where Reif infers or challenges the assumption of
            established knowledge and forms that could have influenced a person in
            Galilee in the first century.

            Towards the end of chapter 3 (page 50) Reif has one paragraph on the
            LP just below an interesting one that mentions Orpheus - I couldn't
            help noticing since we are listening to Monteverdi's Orpheo this
            afternoon :)

            The prior page is all about Angelic Liturgy - fascinating - this may
            give a reason for the opening of Hebrews. I really should read this
            book more closely !

            Here's context + the short para on the LP - it will give you some
            insight into the nature of his writing.
            ---------
            ... the masterful music in praise of God has even been identified as
            the inspiration for one of the psalms in the Psalms Scroll and
            described by Flusser (Psalms, Hymns and Prayers and the views of M.
            Weinfeld and R. Brody in Tarbiz 45(1975-76), pp 15-26, 48(1979) pp
            186-200; 51(1982), pp 493-96.) as a counterpart of the talent of the
            Greek musician Orpheus as known in Jewish and early Christian art.

            It is no new theory to associate advances in Jewish attitudes to
            prayer and later rabbinic developments with such sects. Kaufmann
            Kohler (Ueber die Urspr√ľnge und Grundformen der Synagogalen Liturgie
            MGWJ 37 (1893) pp 441-51 and 489-97. See also his articles on
            Didascalie, Essenes, and Liturgy in the Jewish Encyclopedia + long
            citations... ) already made the connection with the Essenes almost a
            century ago. Certainly the Qumran scrolls provide the earliest
            testimony to liturgical formulations of a communal nature designated
            for particular occasions and conducted in a centre totally independent
            of Jerusalem and the Temple, making use of terminology and theological
            concepts that were later to become dominant in Jewish and, in some
            cases, Christian prayer. Such texts recorded in Luke 1:68-79 and 2:25
            and the 'Lord's Prayer' (Matthew 6:14-15) are continuations of the
            expression of personal prayer found in earlier generations and may
            also owe some of their apparent centrality to attitudes cultivated by
            such groups as the Qumran sect. But sufficient evidence has already
            been cited from other sources to make it clear that such influences,
            while clearly significant, were by no means the only ones, and that
            the background for later developments has to be sought in a much wider
            context.
            ------------

            That's it for his references to the NT.

            (Alas - what would we do if our vision were reduced to the eyes of our
            students! I typed this out to see how hard this book is to read - It
            is as I remember it - thick, but not yet as rewarding as chewing on
            the thick words of for example, Rowan Williams.)

            (Don't fail me - I may yet pass the exam!)

            Bob
            Bob MacDonald
            http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
          • Bob MacDonald
            Jeffrey I hate to do this to you, but I am putting my questions and notes on Reif on my blog. It may be a place which real scholars might like to avoid or at
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 5, 2008
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              Jeffrey

              I hate to do this to you, but I am putting my questions and notes on
              Reif on my blog. It may be a place which real scholars might like to
              avoid or at least not be seen. But it's one of the places where I
              learn by close reading and note taking.

              two entries so far - if you do respond, you may keep me on track.
              http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2008/10/judaism-and-hebrew-prayer-stefan-reif.html
              http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2008/10/judaism-and-hebrew-prayer-2.html


              Bob
              Bob MacDonald
              http://stenagmois.blogspot.com
            • Gregory Leiby
              Search Judaism and Hebrew Prayer on Google Books (http://books.google.com).
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 6, 2008
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                Search "Judaism and Hebrew Prayer" on Google Books (http://books.google.com).

                http://books.google.com/books?id=2CGKCuOL1c0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Judaism+and+Hebrew+Prayer%22&lr=lang_en&num=100&sig=ACfU3U2YCA5Tryqsif6IsTi8qXdelqddmQ#PPP1,M1

                -Greg
                _________________________
                Gregory Leiby
                Greenville, SC, USA
                http://www.theleibys.com/


                --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                > From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
                > Subject: Re: [XTalk] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
                > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 7:02 PM
                > I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created
                > it offline
                > so I wouldn't lose it. Here it is to the list.
                > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B.
                > Gibson"
                > > Any chance of a scan of the chapter?
                > > Jeffrey
                > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                > > Chicago, Illinois
                > > e-mail jgibson000@...
                >
                > Jeffrey - I don't think a scan would be possible -
                > given both
                > copyright and the technological awkwardness - 30 pages +
                > end-notes
                >
                > I could loan you the book at the address in your signature
                > - but it
                > would take some time to get to you. I will read the chapter
                > first and
                > see if there are nuggets worth the snail mail...
                >
                > I will pay particular attention to what he ways about the 5
                > assumptions you are questioning and will report back at
                > minimum.
                >
                > Here's my precis of the 5:
                >
                > 1. that Jesus not only came from a people who 'knew how
                > to pray' but
                > that his understanding of the forms and language in which
                > prayer
                > should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by ...
                > "sacred
                > association".
                > 2. that in the first century the Galilean synagogue had an
                > established
                > liturgy.
                > 3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer
                > played
                > prominent parts within it
                > 4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological
                > 5. that there are resemblances between the form and
                > language and that
                > these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.
                >
                > And here's a further reduction
                > 1. they knew how to pray and Jesus learned from that
                > pattern
                > 2. established liturgy a. containing precursors to what we
                > know, b.
                > eschatological, c. too close for conincidence
                >
                > It is curious that your 5 reduce to 2 + 3 subordinates -
                > and the
                > second is a precondition for the truth of the first...
                >
                > So I will look for where Reif infers or challenges the
                > assumption of
                > established knowledge and forms that could have influenced
                > a person in
                > Galilee in the first century.
                >
                > Towards the end of chapter 3 (page 50) Reif has one
                > paragraph on the
                > LP just below an interesting one that mentions Orpheus - I
                > couldn't
                > help noticing since we are listening to Monteverdi's
                > Orpheo this
                > afternoon :)
                >
                > The prior page is all about Angelic Liturgy - fascinating -
                > this may
                > give a reason for the opening of Hebrews. I really should
                > read this
                > book more closely !
                >
                > Here's context + the short para on the LP - it will
                > give you some
                > insight into the nature of his writing.
                > ---------
                > ... the masterful music in praise of God has even been
                > identified as
                > the inspiration for one of the psalms in the Psalms Scroll
                > and
                > described by Flusser (Psalms, Hymns and Prayers and the
                > views of M.
                > Weinfeld and R. Brody in Tarbiz 45(1975-76), pp 15-26,
                > 48(1979) pp
                > 186-200; 51(1982), pp 493-96.) as a counterpart of the
                > talent of the
                > Greek musician Orpheus as known in Jewish and early
                > Christian art.
                >
                > It is no new theory to associate advances in Jewish
                > attitudes to
                > prayer and later rabbinic developments with such sects.
                > Kaufmann
                > Kohler (Ueber die Urspr√ľnge und Grundformen der
                > Synagogalen Liturgie
                > MGWJ 37 (1893) pp 441-51 and 489-97. See also his articles
                > on
                > Didascalie, Essenes, and Liturgy in the Jewish Encyclopedia
                > + long
                > citations... ) already made the connection with the Essenes
                > almost a
                > century ago. Certainly the Qumran scrolls provide the
                > earliest
                > testimony to liturgical formulations of a communal nature
                > designated
                > for particular occasions and conducted in a centre totally
                > independent
                > of Jerusalem and the Temple, making use of terminology and
                > theological
                > concepts that were later to become dominant in Jewish and,
                > in some
                > cases, Christian prayer. Such texts recorded in Luke
                > 1:68-79 and 2:25
                > and the 'Lord's Prayer' (Matthew 6:14-15) are
                > continuations of the
                > expression of personal prayer found in earlier generations
                > and may
                > also owe some of their apparent centrality to attitudes
                > cultivated by
                > such groups as the Qumran sect. But sufficient evidence has
                > already
                > been cited from other sources to make it clear that such
                > influences,
                > while clearly significant, were by no means the only ones,
                > and that
                > the background for later developments has to be sought in a
                > much wider
                > context.
                > ------------
                >
                > That's it for his references to the NT.
                >
                > (Alas - what would we do if our vision were reduced to the
                > eyes of our
                > students! I typed this out to see how hard this book is to
                > read - It
                > is as I remember it - thick, but not yet as rewarding as
                > chewing on
                > the thick words of for example, Rowan Williams.)
                >
                > (Don't fail me - I may yet pass the exam!)
                >
                > Bob
                > Bob MacDonald
                > http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                >
                > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                > crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
                > crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                > crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
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