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the Synagogue as matrix of the LP

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    With apologies for cross posting: I m back at work on the question of the synagogue and its liturgy as the matrix of the LP, so I d like feedback on whether
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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      With apologies for cross posting:

      I'm back at work on the question of the synagogue and its liturgy as the
      matrix of the LP, so I'd like feedback on whether or not I've laid out
      fully and correctly the assumptions that stand behind this claim.

      With thanks in advance,

      Jeffrey

      ****
      A claim made with great frequency by commentators on the LP -- and
      especially by those who view the LP as an eschatological prayer (i.e.,
      one whose aim is to pray down into "the now" things that, from first
      century Jewish assumptions about time, properly belong to the "age to
      come" -- is that the matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which
      its form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it
      are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more
      particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the
      Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer.

      The claim is grounded in five assumptions.

      1. that Jesus not only came, from a people who knew how to pray, who did
      so according to fixed patterns, and who were disciplined in its
      practice at home and within the synagogue from early youth on, (so J.
      Jeremias, "Daily Prayer in the Life of Jesus and the Primitive Church"
      in his The Prayers of Jesus (SCM), 66-67), but that since he himself
      presumably matured within the influence of the synagogue (as Luke 4:16
      indicates), his understanding of the forms and language in which prayer
      should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by what, through
      "sacred association", he had learned there about these matters.

      Cf. C.M. Laymon, The Lord's Prayer in its Biblical Setting
      [Nashville & New York, Abinbgdon (1968), 32-33 -- "Just as most
      present day Christians who are reared in the Church have their
      conception and practice of prayer influenced by this fact, Jesus'
      thought of prayer and his own prayer life must have been affected by
      the Synagogue"


      2. that in the first century the Jewish -- and particularly the
      Galilean -- synagogue was not only a place of prayer but that it had an
      established liturgy.

      3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer as we have come
      to know them from 2nd century testimony about their shape and wording
      played prominent parts within it

      4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological

      5. that there are resemblances between the form and language of the
      Lord's Prayer on the one hand and that of the liturgical prayers of the
      synagogue and that these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Jeffrey, I like the direction that you re taking, but I see one problem: You are tacitly assuming things about the synagogue in the time of Jesus that are
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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        At 05:34 AM 10/4/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
        >With apologies for cross posting:
        >
        >I'm back at work on the question of the synagogue and its liturgy as the
        >matrix of the LP, so I'd like feedback on whether or not I've laid out
        >fully and correctly the assumptions that stand behind this claim.
        >
        >With thanks in advance,
        >
        >Jeffrey
        >
        >****
        >A claim made with great frequency by commentators on the LP -- and
        >especially by those who view the LP as an eschatological prayer (i.e.,
        >one whose aim is to pray down into "the now" things that, from first
        >century Jewish assumptions about time, properly belong to the "age to
        >come" -- is that the matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which
        >its form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it
        >are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more
        >particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the
        >Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer.

        Jeffrey,
        I like the direction that you're taking, but I see one problem:
        You are tacitly assuming things about the synagogue in the time of Jesus
        that are not readily demonstrated.
        You also seem to be assuming that the Amidah, the Kaddish and the Evening
        Prayer, in the earliest forms that we have of them, were the forms in use
        during the time of Jesus. This is also problematic.

        So it seems to me that your effort must begin with a review of evidence for
        the synagogue, and the liturgical forms of the Amidah, Kaddish and Evening
        prayer, in Galilee during the time of Jesus.

        I suspect that these things were not fixed in form at the time of Jesus,
        and differed in form and content from place to place. One thing that will
        ultimately be necessary is to identify the central synagogues in Galilee at
        the time (Sepphoris? Tiberias? Elsewhere?), which would probably be the
        places that established the form and content for their adherents. But that
        no doubt is beyond the scope of your inquiry.

        Bob Schacht
        University of Hawaii


        >The claim is grounded in five assumptions.
        >
        >1. that Jesus not only came, from a people who knew how to pray, who did
        >so according to fixed patterns, and who were disciplined in its
        >practice at home and within the synagogue from early youth on, (so J.
        >Jeremias, "Daily Prayer in the Life of Jesus and the Primitive Church"
        >in his The Prayers of Jesus (SCM), 66-67), but that since he himself
        >presumably matured within the influence of the synagogue (as Luke 4:16
        >indicates), his understanding of the forms and language in which prayer
        >should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by what, through
        >"sacred association", he had learned there about these matters.
        >
        > Cf. C.M. Laymon, The Lord's Prayer in its Biblical Setting
        > [Nashville & New York, Abinbgdon (1968), 32-33 -- "Just as most
        > present day Christians who are reared in the Church have their
        > conception and practice of prayer influenced by this fact, Jesus'
        > thought of prayer and his own prayer life must have been affected by
        > the Synagogue"
        >
        >
        >2. that in the first century the Jewish -- and particularly the
        >Galilean -- synagogue was not only a place of prayer but that it had an
        >established liturgy.
        >
        >3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer as we have come
        >to know them from 2nd century testimony about their shape and wording
        >played prominent parts within it
        >
        >4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological
        >
        >5. that there are resemblances between the form and language of the
        >Lord's Prayer on the one hand and that of the liturgical prayers of the
        >synagogue and that these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.
        >
        >--
        >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        >Chicago, Illinois
        >e-mail jgibson000@...
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Wow. That s two people who have misread what I wrote! Actually all I m doing is noting what **others** - especially those who see the LP as an
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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          Bob Schacht wrote:
          > At 05:34 AM 10/4/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
          >
          >> With apologies for cross posting:
          >>
          >> I'm back at work on the question of the synagogue and its liturgy as the
          >> matrix of the LP, so I'd like feedback on whether or not I've laid out
          >> fully and correctly the assumptions that stand behind this claim.
          >>
          >> With thanks in advance,
          >>
          >> Jeffrey
          >>
          >> ****
          >> A claim made with great frequency by commentators on the LP -- and
          >> especially by those who view the LP as an eschatological prayer (i.e.,
          >> one whose aim is to pray down into "the now" things that, from first
          >> century Jewish assumptions about time, properly belong to the "age to
          >> come" -- is that the matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which
          >> its form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it
          >> are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more
          >> particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the
          >> Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer.
          >>
          >
          > Jeffrey,
          > I like the direction that you're taking, but I see one problem:
          > You are tacitly assuming things about the synagogue in the time of Jesus
          > that are not readily demonstrated.
          > You also seem to be assuming that the Amidah, the Kaddish and the Evening
          > Prayer, in the earliest forms that we have of them, were the forms in use
          > during the time of Jesus. This is also problematic.
          >
          > So it seems to me that your effort must begin with a review of evidence for
          > the synagogue, and the liturgical forms of the Amidah, Kaddish and Evening
          > prayer, in Galilee during the time of Jesus.
          >
          > I suspect that these things were not fixed in form at the time of Jesus,
          > and differed in form and content from place to place. One thing that will
          > ultimately be necessary is to identify the central synagogues in Galilee at
          > the time (Sepphoris? Tiberias? Elsewhere?), which would probably be the
          > places that established the form and content for their adherents. But that
          > no doubt is beyond the scope of your inquiry.
          >
          Wow. That's two people who have misread what I wrote!

          Actually all I'm doing is noting what **others** - especially those who
          see the LP as an eschatological prayer -- assume when the claim that the
          matrix of the LP is the synagogal liturgy. This is part of a set up to
          bring into question the validity of the synagogal matrix -- and the
          eschatological -- view of the prayer.

          Here is an abstract of what I'll be arguing:

          This paper challenges the validity of two claims made by many
          commentators on the Lord’s Prayer (1) that the thematic and
          theological matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which its
          form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it
          are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more
          particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the
          Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer; and (2) that the assumption of such
          a matrix for the Lord’s Prayer necessarily entails that the prayer
          be seen as “eschatological” in orientation and aim.



          Was I not clear that the five assumptions I noted are not mine?

          Jeffrey

          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • Bob MacDonald
          ... Jeffrey - you make me take up a long-paragraphed book in my library that I got stuck in years ago - Judaism and Hebrew Prayer by Stefan Reif CUP 1993 He
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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            --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
            <jgibson000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Was I not clear that the five assumptions I noted are not mine?
            >
            > Jeffrey
            >
            > --
            > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            > Chicago, Illinois
            > e-mail jgibson000@...
            >
            Jeffrey - you make me take up a long-paragraphed book in my library
            that I got stuck in years ago - Judaism and Hebrew Prayer by Stefan
            Reif CUP 1993

            He has specific criticisms in chapter 3 of these assumptions and their
            extreme opposite that the prayers post 70 were all radically new - I
            can't comment further without rereading it - but maybe you have this
            book available to you

            Bob

            Bob MacDonald
            http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Thanks for this. I am aware that Reif has issued such a challenge. But unfortunately, I do not have the book available to me -- at least not immediately.
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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              Bob MacDonald wrote:
              > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
              > <jgibson000@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Was I not clear that the five assumptions I noted are not mine?
              >>
              >> Jeffrey
              >>
              >> --
              >> Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              >> 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              >> Chicago, Illinois
              >> e-mail jgibson000@...
              >>
              >>
              > Jeffrey - you make me take up a long-paragraphed book in my library
              > that I got stuck in years ago - Judaism and Hebrew Prayer by Stefan
              > Reif CUP 1993
              >
              > He has specific criticisms in chapter 3 of these assumptions and their
              > extreme opposite that the prayers post 70 were all radically new - I
              > can't comment further without rereading it - but maybe you have this
              > book available to you
              >
              Thanks for this.

              I am aware that Reif has issued such a challenge. But unfortunately, I
              do not have the book available to me -- at least not immediately.

              Any chance of a scan of the chapter?

              Jeffrey


              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Bob Schacht
              ... OK, Jeffrey, I plead guilty. I think my problem was with your lead sentence, which weighs in at more than 100 words. By the time I got to the end of the
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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                At 09:00 AM 10/4/2008, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:



                >Wow. That's two people who have misread what I wrote!
                >
                >Actually all I'm doing is noting what **others** - especially those who
                >see the LP as an eschatological prayer -- assume when the claim that the
                >matrix of the LP is the synagogal liturgy. This is part of a set up to
                >bring into question the validity of the synagogal matrix -- and the
                >eschatological -- view of the prayer.

                OK, Jeffrey, I plead guilty. I think my problem was with your lead
                sentence, which weighs in at more than 100 words. By the time I got to the
                end of the sentence, I forgot the orientation you gave it at the beginning.
                I suggest two remedies:
                (1) Remove the "and especially..." insertion from the lead sentence and let
                it stand on its own as a second sentence.
                (2) Insert a reference at the end of the first line "(e.g., Bartley and
                Stuart, 1903)"
                (3) Remind the reader in the third sentence by inserting a few words, e.g.
                "The claim these commenters make is grounded in five assumptions."

                This doesn't actually change anything you wrote, but it helps the reader
                follow your argument.

                Bob Schacht



                >Here is an abstract of what I'll be arguing:
                >
                > This paper challenges the validity of two claims made by many
                > commentators on the Lord's Prayer (1) that the thematic and
                > theological matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which its
                > form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it
                > are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more
                > particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the
                > Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer; and (2) that the assumption of such
                > a matrix for the Lord's Prayer necessarily entails that the prayer
                > be seen as "eschatological" in orientation and aim.
                >
                >
                >
                >Was I not clear that the five assumptions I noted are not mine?
                >
                >Jeffrey
                >
                >--
                >Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                >1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                >Chicago, Illinois
                >e-mail jgibson000@...
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------
                >
                >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                >
                >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bob MacDonald
                I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created it offline so I wouldn t lose it. Here it is to the list. ... Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) ...
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 4, 2008
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                  I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created it offline
                  so I wouldn't lose it. Here it is to the list.
                  --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                  > Any chance of a scan of the chapter?
                  > Jeffrey
                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  > Chicago, Illinois
                  > e-mail jgibson000@...

                  Jeffrey - I don't think a scan would be possible - given both
                  copyright and the technological awkwardness - 30 pages + end-notes

                  I could loan you the book at the address in your signature - but it
                  would take some time to get to you. I will read the chapter first and
                  see if there are nuggets worth the snail mail...

                  I will pay particular attention to what he ways about the 5
                  assumptions you are questioning and will report back at minimum.

                  Here's my precis of the 5:

                  1. that Jesus not only came from a people who 'knew how to pray' but
                  that his understanding of the forms and language in which prayer
                  should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by ... "sacred
                  association".
                  2. that in the first century the Galilean synagogue had an established
                  liturgy.
                  3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer played
                  prominent parts within it
                  4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological
                  5. that there are resemblances between the form and language and that
                  these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.

                  And here's a further reduction
                  1. they knew how to pray and Jesus learned from that pattern
                  2. established liturgy a. containing precursors to what we know, b.
                  eschatological, c. too close for conincidence

                  It is curious that your 5 reduce to 2 + 3 subordinates - and the
                  second is a precondition for the truth of the first...

                  So I will look for where Reif infers or challenges the assumption of
                  established knowledge and forms that could have influenced a person in
                  Galilee in the first century.

                  Towards the end of chapter 3 (page 50) Reif has one paragraph on the
                  LP just below an interesting one that mentions Orpheus - I couldn't
                  help noticing since we are listening to Monteverdi's Orpheo this
                  afternoon :)

                  The prior page is all about Angelic Liturgy - fascinating - this may
                  give a reason for the opening of Hebrews. I really should read this
                  book more closely !

                  Here's context + the short para on the LP - it will give you some
                  insight into the nature of his writing.
                  ---------
                  ... the masterful music in praise of God has even been identified as
                  the inspiration for one of the psalms in the Psalms Scroll and
                  described by Flusser (Psalms, Hymns and Prayers and the views of M.
                  Weinfeld and R. Brody in Tarbiz 45(1975-76), pp 15-26, 48(1979) pp
                  186-200; 51(1982), pp 493-96.) as a counterpart of the talent of the
                  Greek musician Orpheus as known in Jewish and early Christian art.

                  It is no new theory to associate advances in Jewish attitudes to
                  prayer and later rabbinic developments with such sects. Kaufmann
                  Kohler (Ueber die Ursprünge und Grundformen der Synagogalen Liturgie
                  MGWJ 37 (1893) pp 441-51 and 489-97. See also his articles on
                  Didascalie, Essenes, and Liturgy in the Jewish Encyclopedia + long
                  citations... ) already made the connection with the Essenes almost a
                  century ago. Certainly the Qumran scrolls provide the earliest
                  testimony to liturgical formulations of a communal nature designated
                  for particular occasions and conducted in a centre totally independent
                  of Jerusalem and the Temple, making use of terminology and theological
                  concepts that were later to become dominant in Jewish and, in some
                  cases, Christian prayer. Such texts recorded in Luke 1:68-79 and 2:25
                  and the 'Lord's Prayer' (Matthew 6:14-15) are continuations of the
                  expression of personal prayer found in earlier generations and may
                  also owe some of their apparent centrality to attitudes cultivated by
                  such groups as the Qumran sect. But sufficient evidence has already
                  been cited from other sources to make it clear that such influences,
                  while clearly significant, were by no means the only ones, and that
                  the background for later developments has to be sought in a much wider
                  context.
                  ------------

                  That's it for his references to the NT.

                  (Alas - what would we do if our vision were reduced to the eyes of our
                  students! I typed this out to see how hard this book is to read - It
                  is as I remember it - thick, but not yet as rewarding as chewing on
                  the thick words of for example, Rowan Williams.)

                  (Don't fail me - I may yet pass the exam!)

                  Bob
                  Bob MacDonald
                  http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
                • Bob MacDonald
                  Jeffrey I hate to do this to you, but I am putting my questions and notes on Reif on my blog. It may be a place which real scholars might like to avoid or at
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 5, 2008
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                    Jeffrey

                    I hate to do this to you, but I am putting my questions and notes on
                    Reif on my blog. It may be a place which real scholars might like to
                    avoid or at least not be seen. But it's one of the places where I
                    learn by close reading and note taking.

                    two entries so far - if you do respond, you may keep me on track.
                    http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2008/10/judaism-and-hebrew-prayer-stefan-reif.html
                    http://stenagmois.blogspot.com/2008/10/judaism-and-hebrew-prayer-2.html


                    Bob
                    Bob MacDonald
                    http://stenagmois.blogspot.com
                  • Gregory Leiby
                    Search Judaism and Hebrew Prayer on Google Books (http://books.google.com).
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 6, 2008
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                      Search "Judaism and Hebrew Prayer" on Google Books (http://books.google.com).

                      http://books.google.com/books?id=2CGKCuOL1c0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Judaism+and+Hebrew+Prayer%22&lr=lang_en&num=100&sig=ACfU3U2YCA5Tryqsif6IsTi8qXdelqddmQ#PPP1,M1

                      -Greg
                      _________________________
                      Gregory Leiby
                      Greenville, SC, USA
                      http://www.theleibys.com/


                      --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                      > From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [XTalk] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
                      > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 7:02 PM
                      > I am not sure where I sent my earlier note - but I created
                      > it offline
                      > so I wouldn't lose it. Here it is to the list.
                      > --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B.
                      > Gibson"
                      > > Any chance of a scan of the chapter?
                      > > Jeffrey
                      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                      > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                      > > Chicago, Illinois
                      > > e-mail jgibson000@...
                      >
                      > Jeffrey - I don't think a scan would be possible -
                      > given both
                      > copyright and the technological awkwardness - 30 pages +
                      > end-notes
                      >
                      > I could loan you the book at the address in your signature
                      > - but it
                      > would take some time to get to you. I will read the chapter
                      > first and
                      > see if there are nuggets worth the snail mail...
                      >
                      > I will pay particular attention to what he ways about the 5
                      > assumptions you are questioning and will report back at
                      > minimum.
                      >
                      > Here's my precis of the 5:
                      >
                      > 1. that Jesus not only came from a people who 'knew how
                      > to pray' but
                      > that his understanding of the forms and language in which
                      > prayer
                      > should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by ...
                      > "sacred
                      > association".
                      > 2. that in the first century the Galilean synagogue had an
                      > established
                      > liturgy.
                      > 3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer
                      > played
                      > prominent parts within it
                      > 4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological
                      > 5. that there are resemblances between the form and
                      > language and that
                      > these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.
                      >
                      > And here's a further reduction
                      > 1. they knew how to pray and Jesus learned from that
                      > pattern
                      > 2. established liturgy a. containing precursors to what we
                      > know, b.
                      > eschatological, c. too close for conincidence
                      >
                      > It is curious that your 5 reduce to 2 + 3 subordinates -
                      > and the
                      > second is a precondition for the truth of the first...
                      >
                      > So I will look for where Reif infers or challenges the
                      > assumption of
                      > established knowledge and forms that could have influenced
                      > a person in
                      > Galilee in the first century.
                      >
                      > Towards the end of chapter 3 (page 50) Reif has one
                      > paragraph on the
                      > LP just below an interesting one that mentions Orpheus - I
                      > couldn't
                      > help noticing since we are listening to Monteverdi's
                      > Orpheo this
                      > afternoon :)
                      >
                      > The prior page is all about Angelic Liturgy - fascinating -
                      > this may
                      > give a reason for the opening of Hebrews. I really should
                      > read this
                      > book more closely !
                      >
                      > Here's context + the short para on the LP - it will
                      > give you some
                      > insight into the nature of his writing.
                      > ---------
                      > ... the masterful music in praise of God has even been
                      > identified as
                      > the inspiration for one of the psalms in the Psalms Scroll
                      > and
                      > described by Flusser (Psalms, Hymns and Prayers and the
                      > views of M.
                      > Weinfeld and R. Brody in Tarbiz 45(1975-76), pp 15-26,
                      > 48(1979) pp
                      > 186-200; 51(1982), pp 493-96.) as a counterpart of the
                      > talent of the
                      > Greek musician Orpheus as known in Jewish and early
                      > Christian art.
                      >
                      > It is no new theory to associate advances in Jewish
                      > attitudes to
                      > prayer and later rabbinic developments with such sects.
                      > Kaufmann
                      > Kohler (Ueber die Ursprünge und Grundformen der
                      > Synagogalen Liturgie
                      > MGWJ 37 (1893) pp 441-51 and 489-97. See also his articles
                      > on
                      > Didascalie, Essenes, and Liturgy in the Jewish Encyclopedia
                      > + long
                      > citations... ) already made the connection with the Essenes
                      > almost a
                      > century ago. Certainly the Qumran scrolls provide the
                      > earliest
                      > testimony to liturgical formulations of a communal nature
                      > designated
                      > for particular occasions and conducted in a centre totally
                      > independent
                      > of Jerusalem and the Temple, making use of terminology and
                      > theological
                      > concepts that were later to become dominant in Jewish and,
                      > in some
                      > cases, Christian prayer. Such texts recorded in Luke
                      > 1:68-79 and 2:25
                      > and the 'Lord's Prayer' (Matthew 6:14-15) are
                      > continuations of the
                      > expression of personal prayer found in earlier generations
                      > and may
                      > also owe some of their apparent centrality to attitudes
                      > cultivated by
                      > such groups as the Qumran sect. But sufficient evidence has
                      > already
                      > been cited from other sources to make it clear that such
                      > influences,
                      > while clearly significant, were by no means the only ones,
                      > and that
                      > the background for later developments has to be sought in a
                      > much wider
                      > context.
                      > ------------
                      >
                      > That's it for his references to the NT.
                      >
                      > (Alas - what would we do if our vision were reduced to the
                      > eyes of our
                      > students! I typed this out to see how hard this book is to
                      > read - It
                      > is as I remember it - thick, but not yet as rewarding as
                      > chewing on
                      > the thick words of for example, Rowan Williams.)
                      >
                      > (Don't fail me - I may yet pass the exam!)
                      >
                      > Bob
                      > Bob MacDonald
                      > http://drmacdonald.blogspot.com
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
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