Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker

Expand Messages
  • John E. Staton
    Gordon wrote, Now, could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing against that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view Largely because
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 1 9:01 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Gordon wrote, "Now,
      could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing against
      that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view"

      Largely because you have ruled out any evidence that exists a priori,
      Gordon! It is a highly speculative investigation of the Jesus traditions
      which leads to the view of Jesus as primarily a sage - one that by no
      means convinces the whole academic community. Surely it counts against
      your view that so much was written about Jesus performing miracles so
      soon after his death.Whatever one's view of the date of the gospels,
      there were obviously people alive who had actually *met* Jesus when Mark
      was written and when the tradition behind the gospels was being
      forumlated. If Jesus was known *never* to have performed anything that
      even looked like a miracle, these traditions would never have been
      believed! Indeed, if Jesus had not done some "deeds of wonder", why
      would anybody have picked out such a nobody to make a midrash of the
      Elijah-Elisha cyc;e of? Indeed, I believe this is James Dunn's strongest
      point: that *something* must have happened to cause people to say these
      things about Jesus. Perhaps we shouldn't get hung up on definitions of
      miracle which are based on Hume, or on the Vatican's critieria for
      canonising a saint. In those days there were no commonly acknowledged
      "laws of nature". A miracle was a marvellous act, an act that caused
      wonder. Maybe if the same thing had been done today, we would be able to
      account for it according to the laws of nature. That isn't the point.
      The point is that if the Jesus tradition tells us anything, it tells us
      that he did acts that casued wonder. Whether he actually did this or
      that act may be arguable, but that he did some acts which caused people
      to wonder must be certain.

      Best Wishes

      --
      JOHN E. STATON
      www.christianreflection.org.uk
    • Bob Schacht
      ... One of the things Stevan Davies examines in his book, Jesus the Healer, is this evidence. Davies adopts the indirect method, which gets around the direct
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 1 9:55 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        At 06:01 AM 8/1/2008, John E. Staton wrote:
        >Gordon wrote, "Now,
        > could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing against
        > that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view"
        >
        >Largely because you have ruled out any evidence that exists a priori, Gordon!

        One of the things Stevan Davies examines in his book, Jesus the Healer, is
        this "evidence."
        Davies adopts the indirect method, which gets around the direct discussion
        of miracles, by showing that whatever else might be said about Jesus, his
        contemporaries regarded Jesus as a healer. Gordon apparently does not count
        this as "evidence."

        Bob Schacht
        University of Hawaii

        > It is a highly speculative investigation of the Jesus traditions
        >which leads to the view of Jesus as primarily a sage - one that by no
        >means convinces the whole academic community. Surely it counts against
        >your view that so much was written about Jesus performing miracles so
        >soon after his death.Whatever one's view of the date of the gospels,
        >there were obviously people alive who had actually *met* Jesus when Mark
        >was written and when the tradition behind the gospels was being
        >forumlated. If Jesus was known *never* to have performed anything that
        >even looked like a miracle, these traditions would never have been
        >believed! Indeed, if Jesus had not done some "deeds of wonder", why
        >would anybody have picked out such a nobody to make a midrash of the
        >Elijah-Elisha cyc;e of? Indeed, I believe this is James Dunn's strongest
        >point: that *something* must have happened to cause people to say these
        >things about Jesus. Perhaps we shouldn't get hung up on definitions of
        >miracle which are based on Hume, or on the Vatican's critieria for
        >canonising a saint. In those days there were no commonly acknowledged
        >"laws of nature". A miracle was a marvellous act, an act that caused
        >wonder. Maybe if the same thing had been done today, we would be able to
        >account for it according to the laws of nature. That isn't the point.
        >The point is that if the Jesus tradition tells us anything, it tells us
        >that he did acts that casued wonder. Whether he actually did this or
        >that act may be arguable, but that he did some acts which caused people
        >to wonder must be certain.
        >
        >Best Wishes
        >
        >--
        >JOHN E. STATON
        >www.christianreflection.org.uk
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
        >
        >To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gordon Raynal
        Hi Dennis, I appreciate you clear position based on that set of words as central. I don t believe Jesus said those words. Per my note this morning, I don t
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 1 10:35 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Dennis,

          I appreciate you clear position based on that set of words as
          central. I don't believe Jesus said those words. Per my note this
          morning, I don't think those words are centrally constitutional to
          what Jesus and friends were up to at the end of the 20's in and
          around Galilee. I think those words are from later admirers of Jesus
          and members of some of the communities that came from that
          constitutional work. And I find it none too surprising that there
          came to be a focus on Classical Prophecy and Apocalyptic Prophecy as
          time went on. So, I hope this clarifies our very basic disagreement.

          And congratulations on your "graduation:)!"

          Gordon Raynal
          Inman, SC
          On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

          > Without wishing to appear overly disputatious, I am forced to take
          > issue with the proposition that the man Yeshua is better
          > categorized as a sage, rather than an apocalyptic prophet. "Flee
          > from the wrath to come " could not be more representative of an OT
          > prophet, in my view, and that in a nutshell is the message, replete
          > with Zoroastrian eschatology, that Yeshua proclaims, like others of
          > his ilk in that century. That is not to say that he does not
          > proclaim also a hyperbolically demanding morality, merely that his
          > main message is about the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God on
          > earth.
          >
          > Dennis Goffin
          >
          > Octogenarian Graduate
          >
          > Chorleywood,Herts. UK
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
          >
          > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
          > subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
          > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-
          > owners@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Gordon Raynal
          Hi John, ... What do you take as this evidence? ... Actually, not. It does not take long at all for legendary communications to arise. What we have in terms
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 1 11:07 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi John,

            On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:01 PM, John E. Staton wrote:

            > Gordon wrote, "Now,
            > could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing
            > against
            > that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view"
            >
            > Largely because you have ruled out any evidence that exists a priori,
            > Gordon!

            What do you take as this evidence?

            > It is a highly speculative investigation of the Jesus traditions
            > which leads to the view of Jesus as primarily a sage - one that by no
            > means convinces the whole academic community. Surely it counts against
            > your view that so much was written about Jesus performing miracles so
            > soon after his death.

            Actually, not. It does not take long at all for legendary
            communications to arise. What we have in terms of these Gospel
            wonder stories are clearly, well crafted stories that go with the
            theology and characterization of each of the sources. Most I think
            still posit that Mark was written slightly before or after the R-J
            War. I actually favor a date of about 80 CE. But either way, we're
            talking some 40 to 50 years between Jesus and that writing. That's
            MORE than a plenty enough time to craft such delightful,
            theologically powerful stories.
            > Whatever one's view of the date of the gospels,
            > there were obviously people alive who had actually *met* Jesus when
            > Mark
            > was written and when the tradition behind the gospels was being
            > forumlated.

            Just a note here, I don't think the NT Gospels are founded in
            historical reports, nor was their aim in any way to be
            "biographies." I think they were consciously written as theological
            works and that the creativity there in is exactly the same sort of
            creativity that went into the stories about Adam and Eve, Noah,
            Abraham, Moses, etc. etc. etc.

            > If Jesus was known *never* to have performed anything that
            > even looked like a miracle, these traditions would never have been
            > believed!

            Oh come on now:)! It has to do with what you are asserting "should
            be believed," right? I believe, for instance that Genesis 1 is a
            terrific theological formulation. I happen to believe it. I also
            collect fossils and think Darwin was one cool cat:)! Aside from
            that, people make up stuff all the time and get bunches of people to
            believe it. Those folks involved in certainty that there were WMD's
            in Iraq in recent years did a real swell job of that!

            > Indeed, if Jesus had not done some "deeds of wonder", why
            > would anybody have picked out such a nobody to make a midrash of the
            > Elijah-Elisha cyc;e of?

            See my note from this a.m. In the big old world of Imperial Roman
            Theology (to use Dom Crossan's expression) that with arms,
            officialdom and economic might proclaimed "the Pax Romani," I find it
            not surprising at all that those Jewish folks went dashing to their
            Scriptures to fully fund and found their "ministry of
            reconciliation." Actually, if this were a theological discussion
            group, I might talk about that as a matter of "signs and wonders,"
            but this isn't that sort of group, and so here I'll stick with history.

            > Indeed, I believe this is James Dunn's strongest
            > point: that *something* must have happened to cause people to say
            > these
            > things about Jesus.

            And he (and you) account that "something" in one way and I do so in
            another way. And just as an aside here, I simply want to note
            earlier this year there was a new special on MLK and the Civil Rights
            movement. Very, very well done. (forget which channel it was on)
            But it doesn't take a lot of "something" to cause a great social
            shift to get ignited. Such things as tired Rosa Parks not getting
            out of her seat had enormous social ramifications. And a mere
            Southern Baptist preacher and a group of friends... with word and
            marches... fundamentally changed America. "Something" doesn't have
            to be huge to make a huge difference and I think this thought well
            applies to Jesus and a small bunch of friends and what they did.

            > Perhaps we shouldn't get hung up on definitions of
            > miracle which are based on Hume, or on the Vatican's critieria for
            > canonising a saint. In those days there were no commonly acknowledged
            > "laws of nature". A miracle was a marvellous act, an act that caused
            > wonder. Maybe if the same thing had been done today, we would be
            > able to
            > account for it according to the laws of nature. That isn't the point.
            > The point is that if the Jesus tradition tells us anything, it
            > tells us
            > that he did acts that casued wonder. Whether he actually did this or
            > that act may be arguable, but that he did some acts which caused
            > people
            > to wonder must be certain.

            I love the word wonder, actually. It is primally what wisdom speech
            arouses... if heard, it makes one wonder??? The force of opening up
            and exciting imaginative responses to situations in the world if
            incredibly powerful. Words are very often exactly "the Something"
            that change the world.

            >
            > Best Wishes

            thanks and same to you.

            Gordon Raynal
            Inman, SC
            >
            > --
            > JOHN E. STATON
            > www.christianreflection.org.uk
            >
            >
          • Dennis Goffin
            Hi Gordon, Which are the words you don t think Jesus said? Thanks for your congratulations, but I left University College Leicester over 50-odd years ago.
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 1 11:09 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Gordon,
              Which are the words you don't think Jesus said? Thanks for your congratulations, but I left University College Leicester over 50-odd years ago.
              Regards,
              Dennis Goffin BA Hons. French
              Chorleywood UK






              --- Original Message -----
              From: Gordon Raynal
              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Michael Ensley
              Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 6:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker


              Hi Dennis,

              I appreciate you clear position based on that set of words as
              central. I don't believe Jesus said those words. Per my note this
              morning, I don't think those words are centrally constitutional to
              what Jesus and friends were up to at the end of the 20's in and
              around Galilee. I think those words are from later admirers of Jesus
              and members of some of the communities that came from that
              constitutional work. And I find it none too surprising that there
              came to be a focus on Classical Prophecy and Apocalyptic Prophecy as
              time went on. So, I hope this clarifies our very basic disagreement.

              And congratulations on your "graduation:)!"

              Gordon Raynal
              Inman, SC
              On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

              > Without wishing to appear overly disputatious, I am forced to take
              > issue with the proposition that the man Yeshua is better
              > categorized as a sage, rather than an apocalyptic prophet. "Flee
              > from the wrath to come " could not be more representative of an OT
              > prophet, in my view, and that in a nutshell is the message, replete
              > with Zoroastrian eschatology, that Yeshua proclaims, like others of
              > his ilk in that century. That is not to say that he does not
              > proclaim also a hyperbolically demanding morality, merely that his
              > main message is about the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God on
              > earth.
              >
              > Dennis Goffin
              >
              > Octogenarian Graduate
              >
              > Chorleywood,Herts. UK
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
              >
              > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
              > subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
              > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-
              > owners@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gordon Raynal
              Hi Bob, ... I trust my note this morning clarifies the important broad understanding that healing played and how that data points to Jesus as involved in being
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 1 11:38 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Bob,
                On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Bob Schacht wrote:

                > At 06:01 AM 8/1/2008, John E. Staton wrote:
                >> Gordon wrote, "Now,
                >> could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing
                >> against
                >> that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view"
                >>
                >> Largely because you have ruled out any evidence that exists a
                >> priori, Gordon!
                >
                > One of the things Stevan Davies examines in his book, Jesus the
                > Healer, is
                > this "evidence."
                > Davies adopts the indirect method, which gets around the direct
                > discussion
                > of miracles, by showing that whatever else might be said about
                > Jesus, his
                > contemporaries regarded Jesus as a healer. Gordon apparently does
                > not count
                > this as "evidence."
                >
                > Bob Schacht
                > University of Hawaii

                I trust my note this morning clarifies the important broad
                understanding that healing played and how that data points to Jesus
                as involved in being an agent of social healing. If "healer" (of
                indviduals) is generalized to include to "tending to/ paying
                attention to/ praying over/ talking with... telling stories...
                sharing their common Hebrew notions about the power of trusting
                God"... that sort of thing, then the term is okay by me. All of
                those things have quite a lot to do with regaining health, of
                course. I'm sure your mom and dad did those sorts of things for
                you! But as the general tendency is to want to dash to cross
                cultural studies and look at such as exorcism, then yes, I'll hold
                off from that designation. And one reason are the two story sources
                we have! The Markan/ Synoptic tradition majors in "exorcism." In
                John this is no where in sight. One can account for those
                differences easily enough in terms of theological framing and
                characterization choices. But again, I'm not against the idea that
                Jesus in some way may have been a folk tradition healer, but I just
                see no evidence to support that proposition. As noted this morning,
                I find this attribution to be part of a larger story telling agenda
                that is theologically rooted, not biographically rooted.

                Gordon Raynal
                Inman, SC
                >
              • Dennis Goffin
                Hallo again Gordon, Since sending my last note I have checked that the words I used are quoted by Matthew and Luke and are spoken by John the Baptist when
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 1 12:39 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hallo again Gordon,
                  Since sending my last note I have checked that the words I used are quoted by Matthew and Luke and are spoken by John the Baptist when Jesus came to him for baptism, John the Baptist was an apocalypticist and for Jesus to ask John to baptise him must clearly indicate that he sympathised with and endorsed the position John took. In his book "Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet Of the New Millennium" Bart Ehrman makes the point on page 139 that the Christian church which succeeded Jesus was also clearly apocalyptic and therefore if the beginning and the end were both apocalyptic, the conclusion has to be that Jesus himself must have been a Jewish apocalypticist.
                  Dennis Goffin
                  UK





                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Gordon Raynal
                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: Michael Ensley
                  Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 6:35 PM
                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker


                  Hi Dennis,

                  I appreciate you clear position based on that set of words as
                  central. I don't believe Jesus said those words. Per my note this
                  morning, I don't think those words are centrally constitutional to
                  what Jesus and friends were up to at the end of the 20's in and
                  around Galilee. I think those words are from later admirers of Jesus
                  and members of some of the communities that came from that
                  constitutional work. And I find it none too surprising that there
                  came to be a focus on Classical Prophecy and Apocalyptic Prophecy as
                  time went on. So, I hope this clarifies our very basic disagreement.

                  And congratulations on your "graduation:)!"

                  Gordon Raynal
                  Inman, SC
                  On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

                  > Without wishing to appear overly disputatious, I am forced to take
                  > issue with the proposition that the man Yeshua is better
                  > categorized as a sage, rather than an apocalyptic prophet. "Flee
                  > from the wrath to come " could not be more representative of an OT
                  > prophet, in my view, and that in a nutshell is the message, replete
                  > with Zoroastrian eschatology, that Yeshua proclaims, like others of
                  > his ilk in that century. That is not to say that he does not
                  > proclaim also a hyperbolically demanding morality, merely that his
                  > main message is about the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God on
                  > earth.
                  >
                  > Dennis Goffin
                  >
                  > Octogenarian Graduate
                  >
                  > Chorleywood,Herts. UK
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                  >
                  > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
                  > subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-
                  > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-
                  > owners@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Gordon Raynal
                  Hi Dennis, ... Ehrman, and I guess still the majority, like to put out this line: JTB was an apocalyptic prophet, Paul was an apocalyptic theologian, so Jesus
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 2 8:33 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Dennis,

                    On Aug 1, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

                    > Hallo again Gordon,
                    > Since sending my last note I have
                    > checked that the words I used are quoted by Matthew and Luke and
                    > are spoken by John the Baptist when Jesus came to him for
                    > baptism, John the Baptist was an apocalypticist and for Jesus to
                    > ask John to baptise him must clearly indicate that he sympathised
                    > with and endorsed the position John took. In his book "Jesus:
                    > Apocalyptic Prophet Of the New Millennium" Bart Ehrman makes the
                    > point on page 139 that the Christian church which succeeded Jesus
                    > was also clearly apocalyptic and therefore if the beginning and the
                    > end were both apocalyptic, the conclusion has to be that Jesus
                    > himself must have been a Jewish apocalypticist.
                    > Dennis Goffin
                    > UK

                    Ehrman, and I guess still the majority, like to put out this line:
                    "JTB was an apocalyptic prophet, Paul was an apocalyptic theologian,
                    so Jesus in the middle fit right in." (or some version of that).
                    Some version of this kind of formulation seems to simply sum up that
                    there is a pure unbroken stream of apocalyptic prophecy that all
                    endorsed and had essential agreement about.... and then, that had to
                    be played down and re-interpreted... well, because we're all still
                    here:)! You will not be surprised to learn that I think this is not
                    only inaccurate for the overall picture of the times, but also not
                    even very helpful in terms of JTB, Jesus, Paul and other early
                    followers of Jesus. So, in simple points:

                    In that era, as before and after, I think Jewish folks were quite
                    diverse in their overall theological outlooks and in how the genre of
                    apocalyptic functioned. We get glimpses of that diversity in the
                    little we know about the various factions and parties that are
                    mentioned in the NT and known is such as Josephus and Philo. To
                    conclude that Jews in that era were simply overwhelming "apocalyptic"
                    and agreed on what that meant is, for me, a huge and broad
                    generalization that is not supported in the literature and not ever
                    very helpful. So...

                    JTB, I think is best described in terms of the Prophetic traditions
                    of Israel... one who utilized Apocalyptic Speech, surely, but is in
                    fact best understood in what he was named for: Baptism. Central
                    there is "to repent and believe."

                    To Paul, he races all over the Scriptures to write his few letters we
                    have. (I think the authentic Pauline corpus is limited to Romans, I
                    & II Corinthians, Philippians, Galatians and Philemon and those show
                    signs of editing). He definitely used the apocalyptic genre, but so
                    also other genres of Scripture... including wisdom. I can accept
                    that apocalyptic was central for him, but then please note what Paul
                    says about what "God had done in Jesus Christ." (see I Cor. 1:30
                    "He (God) is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, who became for
                    us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and
                    redemption.") Note what comes first when Paul wants to write about
                    the significance of the Cross. The Cross, of all things,
                    communicates wisdom, first!

                    And so to Jesus... I think his prime and core "missional speech" is
                    that of the aphorisms and parables. That is wisdom speech, hence I
                    think on the basis of his own speech and not the ways others
                    theologized about him is the best way to judge how to understand the
                    man and what he was up to. That mission agenda I presented yesterday
                    can be interpreted apocalyptically, but it is not at heart an
                    apocalyptic agenda. And I take quite seriously that Jesus didn't
                    think it was, because I think these words are from Jesus:

                    Q/Luke 17:20-21 "The Kingdom of God is not coming with things that
                    can be observed; now will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There is
                    is!' For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

                    I think that is vintage wisdom thought. I think it is vintage
                    Jesus. I know it can be reframed in terms of a future focused
                    eschatology and indeed was in some strands of the tradition. But
                    then I think those drawn to earliest Christianity were a diverse lot
                    on these issues and thankfully we have glimpses of this in the
                    various strands of literature we have.

                    Hope this helps!

                    Gordon Raynal
                    Inman, SC
                  • Jack Kilmon
                    Dennis and Gordon: Forgive me for the length of this and also, asthe follow the Aramaic guy, for use of Yeshua instead of Jesus. There is a ton of
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 2 8:42 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dennis and Gordon:

                      Forgive me for the length of this and also, asthe "follow the Aramaic" guy,
                      for use of "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus."

                      There is a ton of literature on Yeshua's use of his self-description as the
                      bar nasha (Son of Man) and disagreements on what that meant. If the Dead
                      Sea Scroll corpus is a good barometer, the late 2nd temple period saw an
                      emergence of Daniel-Enochian fervor. In both Daniel and the Enochian
                      literature, the "son of man" plays a central role.

                      Yeshua himself, NOT ONCE, refers to himself with certainty as the Messiah
                      but instead refers to himself as the bar nasha/ben adam of Daniel and
                      Enoch..."coming on the clouds, etc." It was Paul of Tarsus...hostile to the
                      Nazarenes, who conferred the name of XRISTOS on Yeshua in his reconstruction
                      of Yeshua as the Pauline "Christ Crucified."

                      The cradle from which both Jewish and Christian "mysticism" arose was
                      Enochian apocalypticism, the same cradle from which post-destruction Ma'asei
                      Merkavah (which would eventually develop into Kabbala) and the Hekhalot
                      literature arose which deals with "mystical" ascents into heaven.

                      Anyone pursuing the ancient Jewish sources from which the Nazarenes arose,
                      should read the considerable Enochian literary corpus now available thanks
                      to the Qumran texts. The Books of Enoch and their related texts, Jubilees,
                      Giants, Weeks, Parables, Watchers, Testimonies of the 12 Patriarchs, Dreams,
                      etc. Enochian apocalypticism is a reflection of a Mesopotamian alternative
                      to Mosaic" Judaism with its focus on Enmeduranki, the 7th antediluvian king
                      of Sippar in the Sumerian Chronicles and a counterpart (or model) for Enoch.

                      There was a considerable influence by Zoroastrianism on Judaism as a result
                      to the Babylonian Captivity after which they brought the Enochian traditions
                      to Jerusalem upon the return. The Jerusalem priests at that time hated the
                      Enochian Jews (and it is my position that Jesus was an Enochian Jew) who
                      supported the Maccabees thereby gaining favor with the Hasmoneans. These
                      Enochian Jews became, IMO, the Essenes who subsequently developed serious
                      issues with the Hasmonean priest-kings. I don't think anyonewould argue
                      that the Dead Sea Scrolls are not strongly Enochian.

                      The Jewish Nazarenes ("branchers") were heirs, IMO, to the Enochian
                      traditions but Gentile Christianity imported a constellation of influences
                      from Graeco-Roman sources. That Enochian Judaism was alternative to Mosaic
                      nomian Judaeism can explain why Paul appears anti-nomian and why Enoch was
                      not included in the Rabbinical canon.

                      Quoted in the Book of Jude:

                      "And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute
                      judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
                      of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And
                      of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
                      (Enoch 1:9)

                      Other references to the SON OF MAN in Enoch:

                      "And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like
                      wool, And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of
                      a man, And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. 2
                      And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things,
                      concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he
                      went with the Ancient of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This
                      is the Son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness,
                      And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden, Because the
                      Lord of Hosts hath chosen him, And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before
                      the Lord of Hosts in uprightness for ever." (Part 8 Chapter 46:1-3)

                      1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was
                      inexhaustible: And around it were many fountains of wisdom: And all the
                      thirsty drank of them, And were filled with wisdom, And their dwellings were
                      with the righteous and holy and elect. 2 And at that hour that Son of Man
                      was named In the presence of the Lord of Hosts, And his name before the
                      Ancient of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before
                      the stars of the heaven were made, His name
                      was named before the Lord of Hosts. 4 He shall be a staff to the righteous
                      whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the
                      Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart. 5 All who dwell
                      on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless
                      and celebrate with song the Lord of Hosts. 6 And for this reason hath he
                      been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for
                      evermore. 7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Hosts hath revealed him to the
                      holy and righteous; For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous, Because
                      they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, And have hated
                      all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Hosts: For in his name
                      they are saved, And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to
                      their life. (Part 8 Chapter 48:1-7)

                      The Book of Daniel, like Enoch, was written originally in Aramaic. It
                      contains the most famous reference to the SON OF MAN.

                      Daniel 7:13-14 (WEB)
                      13 חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא וארו עם־ענני שׁמיא כבר אנשׁ אתה הוה ועד־עתיק יומיא
                      מטה וקדמוהי הקרבוהי׃ 14 ולה יהיב שׁלטן ויקר ומלכו וכל עממיא אמיא ולשׁניא לה
                      יפלחון שׁלטנה שׁלטן עלם די־לא יעדה ומלכותה פ

                      13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of
                      the sky one like a son of man (כבר אנש [kibar 'anash]), and he came even to
                      the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 There was
                      given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations,
                      and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
                      which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
                      destroyed.

                      Yeshua spoke of himself, just as above in Daniel, at Matthew 24:30 And
                      then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
                      the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
                      the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                      .....and at Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
                      nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting
                      on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                      As you can see, Yeshua refers to himself as the SON OF MAN (Aramaic bar
                      nasha) of Daniel and Enoch andnot, IMO, as simply the bar nash/a idiom for
                      "just a guy."


                      Now let's see how many times Yeshua calls himself the bar nasha (son of
                      man)...he never referred to himself with certainty or non-cryptically as
                      the Messiah.

                      Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds
                      of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his]
                      head.

                      Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to
                      forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy
                      bed, and go unto thine house.

                      Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into
                      another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities
                      of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

                      Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold
                      a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But
                      wisdom is justified of her children.

                      Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

                      Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
                      be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not
                      be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

                      Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's
                      belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
                      of the earth.

                      Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
                      is the Son of man;

                      Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall
                      gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
                      iniquity;

                      Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
                      his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

                      Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
                      his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                      Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
                      shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
                      kingdom.

                      Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them,
                      saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from
                      the dead.

                      Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew
                      him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also
                      the Son of man suffer of them.

                      Matthew 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son
                      of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

                      Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

                      Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye
                      which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in
                      the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the
                      twelve tribes of Israel.

                      Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be
                      betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn
                      him to death,

                      Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to
                      minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

                      Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even
                      unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                      Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
                      and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son
                      of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (this is
                      right out of Enoch 7)

                      Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of
                      the Son of man be.

                      Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
                      shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                      Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think
                      not the Son of man cometh.

                      Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour
                      wherein the Son of man cometh.

                      Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
                      angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

                      Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover,
                      and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

                      Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto
                      that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man
                      if he had not been born.

                      Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep
                      on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of
                      Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

                      Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto
                      you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
                      power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

                      Yeshua is reported by Matthew alone to have claimed to have been the SON OF
                      MAN (bar nasha) of Daniel and Enoch THIRTY TIMES....so why don't we believe
                      him? Why do we believe Paul of Tarsus instead?

                      An Enochian Jew, in the late second temple period, is one who believed in
                      the Enochian apocalyptic such as the Essenes and Yohanan haMatbil.

                      Jesus/Yeshua was indeed, IMO, an apocalyptic herald of the imminent malkutha
                      d'alaha (Kingdom of God) in the Enochian tradition and, as such, outside of
                      "normative" Mosaic Judaism. I think there are other indicators that this
                      "Son of Man" from the ancient of days could be "Lord of the Sabbath" as well
                      as the Mosaic laws (seen in the formula "It is written" or "You have
                      heard"...ABC "but *I* tell you"...XYZ).

                      So yes, he was apocalyptic but, in his mind, just not a "sage" but THE bar
                      nasha that was expected by Yohanan/John (Matthew 11:3), the apocalyptic
                      redeemer of Daniel 7:13-14.

                      Jack

                      Jack Kilmon
                      San Antonio,TX


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Dennis Goffin" <dgoffin@...>
                      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 2:39 PM
                      Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker


                      > Hallo again Gordon,
                      > Since sending my last note I have checked
                      > that the words I used are quoted by Matthew and Luke and are spoken by
                      > John the Baptist when Jesus came to him for baptism, John the Baptist
                      > was an apocalypticist and for Jesus to ask John to baptise him must
                      > clearly indicate that he sympathised with and endorsed the position John
                      > took. In his book "Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet Of the New Millennium" Bart
                      > Ehrman makes the point on page 139 that the Christian church which
                      > succeeded Jesus was also clearly apocalyptic and therefore if the
                      > beginning and the end were both apocalyptic, the conclusion has to be that
                      > Jesus himself must have been a Jewish apocalypticist.
                      > Dennis Goffin
                      > UK
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Gordon Raynal
                      > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Cc: Michael Ensley
                      > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 6:35 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Dennis,
                      >
                      > I appreciate you clear position based on that set of words as
                      > central. I don't believe Jesus said those words. Per my note this
                      > morning, I don't think those words are centrally constitutional to
                      > what Jesus and friends were up to at the end of the 20's in and
                      > around Galilee. I think those words are from later admirers of Jesus
                      > and members of some of the communities that came from that
                      > constitutional work. And I find it none too surprising that there
                      > came to be a focus on Classical Prophecy and Apocalyptic Prophecy as
                      > time went on. So, I hope this clarifies our very basic disagreement.
                      >
                      > And congratulations on your "graduation:)!"
                      >
                      > Gordon Raynal
                      > Inman, SC
                    • Gordon Raynal
                      ... Hi again... well that calls for even more congratulations! I think the apocalyptic speech given placed on Jesus lips comes from the evangelists (and
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 2 9:08 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

                        > Hi Gordon,
                        > Which are the words you don't think Jesus said?
                        > Thanks for your congratulations, but I left University College
                        > Leicester over 50-odd years ago.
                        > Regards,
                        > Dennis Goffin BA Hons. French
                        > Chorleywood UK

                        Hi again... well that calls for even more congratulations!

                        I think the "apocalyptic speech" given placed on Jesus lips comes
                        from the evangelists (and maybe even that JTB speech piece). The
                        point of their focus on JTB and Jesus's utilizing this speech should
                        be clear enough after the R-J War. How to deal with that great
                        trauma could hardly be ignored and those resources of both Classical
                        Prophetic and Apocalyptic Prophetic materials provided rich fodder
                        for dealing with that trauma and framing what Jesus and friends were
                        up to in the late 20's in terms of it. Once more, that "what they
                        were up to" I think can best be described by Paul's words: "a
                        ministry of reconciliation." Or look at the Epistle of James for
                        "the Way of Wisdom in 3:17-18 and Paul's parallel "the Fruit of the
                        Spirit" in Galatians 5:22-26. Or look at the very opening of the
                        Didache... "The Way of Life" after the OT foundation is from the
                        aphoristic speech we find in Matthew's Sermon on the Mount and Luke's
                        Sermon on the Plain. The core ethical praxis language was presented
                        by Jesus in wisdom forms of communication. Even if one wants to
                        affirm Jesus also utilized apocalyptic speech, that speech was
                        secondary and not primary. Why say that? See the Sermon on the
                        Mount, Mark 4:33 ff, etc.

                        Now let me say to all, I actually love the genre of apocalyptic.
                        Artfully used it makes for terrific fodder for great literature and
                        great movies. Some of my favorites are Sci-Fi movies. So, please
                        don't think I don't like and appreciate the genre. I simply do not
                        think from the resources we have that this was Jesus' speech. I
                        think that was wisdom speech and that the apocalyptic genre was used
                        by his interpreters to frame and interpret that speech later on. But
                        then there were other framings and interpretive tacks used, as well.
                        And the interesting thing about the broad use of apocalyptic is that
                        it required re-interpretation and we see this across the four
                        Canonical Gospels that we have and then outside in later Christian
                        resources.

                        Gordon Raynal
                        Inman, SC

                        >
                      • Dennis Goffin
                        Quite simply, Gordon, how would you explain Matthew 16.27/8 ? For my part I endorse everything that Jack has written. Dennis Goffin Chorleywood, UK ... From:
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 2 10:02 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Quite simply, Gordon, how would you explain Matthew 16.27/8 ? For my part I endorse everything that Jack has written.
                          Dennis Goffin
                          Chorleywood, UK





                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Gordon Raynal
                          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: Michael Ensley
                          Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 5:08 PM
                          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker



                          On Aug 1, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

                          > Hi Gordon,
                          > Which are the words you don't think Jesus said?
                          > Thanks for your congratulations, but I left University College
                          > Leicester over 50-odd years ago.
                          > Regards,
                          > Dennis Goffin BA Hons. French
                          > Chorleywood UK

                          Hi again... well that calls for even more congratulations!

                          I think the "apocalyptic speech" given placed on Jesus lips comes
                          from the evangelists (and maybe even that JTB speech piece). The
                          point of their focus on JTB and Jesus's utilizing this speech should
                          be clear enough after the R-J War. How to deal with that great
                          trauma could hardly be ignored and those resources of both Classical
                          Prophetic and Apocalyptic Prophetic materials provided rich fodder
                          for dealing with that trauma and framing what Jesus and friends were
                          up to in the late 20's in terms of it. Once more, that "what they
                          were up to" I think can best be described by Paul's words: "a
                          ministry of reconciliation." Or look at the Epistle of James for
                          "the Way of Wisdom in 3:17-18 and Paul's parallel "the Fruit of the
                          Spirit" in Galatians 5:22-26. Or look at the very opening of the
                          Didache... "The Way of Life" after the OT foundation is from the
                          aphoristic speech we find in Matthew's Sermon on the Mount and Luke's
                          Sermon on the Plain. The core ethical praxis language was presented
                          by Jesus in wisdom forms of communication. Even if one wants to
                          affirm Jesus also utilized apocalyptic speech, that speech was
                          secondary and not primary. Why say that? See the Sermon on the
                          Mount, Mark 4:33 ff, etc.

                          Now let me say to all, I actually love the genre of apocalyptic.
                          Artfully used it makes for terrific fodder for great literature and
                          great movies. Some of my favorites are Sci-Fi movies. So, please
                          don't think I don't like and appreciate the genre. I simply do not
                          think from the resources we have that this was Jesus' speech. I
                          think that was wisdom speech and that the apocalyptic genre was used
                          by his interpreters to frame and interpret that speech later on. But
                          then there were other framings and interpretive tacks used, as well.
                          And the interesting thing about the broad use of apocalyptic is that
                          it required re-interpretation and we see this across the four
                          Canonical Gospels that we have and then outside in later Christian
                          resources.

                          Gordon Raynal
                          Inman, SC

                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Gordon Raynal
                          Jack, I want to thank you for this long and helpful note. While we obviously disagree about how to best understand the historical fellow named Jesus son of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 2 10:52 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jack,

                            I want to thank you for this long and helpful note. While we
                            obviously disagree about how to best understand the historical fellow
                            named Jesus son of Joseph(?) and Mary, this sort of study is, of
                            course vital to understanding part of the broader context of the
                            times. I, of course, think that there were many who took to Jesus
                            who centrally worked from and espoused what you are laying out in
                            these resources. You get no argument about that from me. Indeed
                            (and let me once more borrow Paul's phrase) a real "ministry of
                            reconciliation" would aim at bringing diverse folk together, right?
                            I simply do not want to limit those who were attracted to follow
                            Jesus to the category of "apocalyptic" versus "non-apocalyptic."
                            First, I think the genre of apocalyptic can have many shades of
                            usage, as can the genre of wisdom speech. Second, I don't find it
                            overly helpful to "categorize" individuals just by this proposed
                            duality alone (as if this duality simply presents us with two clear
                            opposite camps). Third, I think "a ministry of reconciliation" aims
                            precisely at bringing diversity (and so diverse folks) together, and
                            hence pushing any supposed duality like this would be rather counter
                            productive to "the spirit" of the movement's very intent. This said,
                            let me simply also note about what both Matthew and Luke do with Mark
                            is not only access what you're providing as important frames to their
                            "Gospel of Jesus Christ" (and for Matthew most pointedly... Son of
                            Abraham, Son of David, Son of God, one like but greater than Moses
                            and Elijah, etc.... so also those "Sons of..."), but also add what?
                            Lots of wisdom speech. Accept Q or accept that Matthew had access to
                            more of these sayings and Luke copied from Matthew, both Matthew and
                            Luke round out their gospels with aphorisms and parables. At the end
                            of the day, and let us say that I am wrong about the wisdom speaker/
                            teacher/ sage being the best way to classify the historical fellow
                            Jesus in the late 20's, then **this speech** needs to be studied in
                            it's own right and in terms of the legacy of wisdom communication in
                            the Israelite scriptures, the post- Scriptural resources and then in
                            terms of the broader world of wisdom communication. And likewise
                            there is a bevy of materials from Israel's past to do just this. And
                            a good reading of such as Diogenes of Sinope won't hurt either.

                            So, thanks for this note. I find it very helpful, not to try to
                            focus on the fellow named Jesus, himself, but yes in terms of those
                            around him, those who surely were swept up on this small movement in
                            his lifetime and at least a good number of those who came on later on.

                            Gordon Raynal
                            Inman, SC
                            On Aug 2, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Jack Kilmon wrote:

                            > Dennis and Gordon:
                            >
                            > Forgive me for the length of this and also, asthe "follow the
                            > Aramaic" guy,
                            > for use of "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus."
                            >
                          • Gordon Raynal
                            Hi Dennis, ... Verse 27 has it s base in Mark 8:38, verse 28 in Mark 9:1. So, I think this is part of the language Mark created and was then redacted by both
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 3 10:14 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Dennis,

                              On Aug 2, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

                              > Quite simply, Gordon, how would you explain Matthew 16.27/8 ? For
                              > my part I endorse everything that Jack has written.
                              > Dennis Goffin
                              > Chorleywood, UK

                              Verse 27 has it's base in Mark 8:38, verse 28 in Mark 9:1. So, I
                              think this is part of the language Mark created and was then redacted
                              by both Matthew and Luke to fit his characterization of Jesus Christ
                              as fulfilling that Daniel, Enoch expectation. So in a word this is a
                              Markan creation.

                              And for whom you endorse, I am glad you have found the stir of this
                              discussion helpful!

                              Gordon Raynal
                              Inman, SC
                              >
                            • Dennis Goffin
                              Are you then saying, Gordon, that for example Mark 9.1 is not the words of Jesus but merely a Markan creation ? If so, where do you stop ? And are you also not
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 3 11:20 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Are you then saying, Gordon, that for example Mark 9.1 is not the words of Jesus but merely a Markan creation ? If so, where do you stop ? And are you also not opening the door for it to be said equally that your favoured "sage" passages are likewise later creations ? I would also like to make the point that many of the parables you prize as part of your "wisdom" approach are on the subject of apocalyptic eschatology.
                                Dennis Goffin UK




                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Gordon Raynal
                                To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                Cc: Michael Ensley
                                Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 6:14 PM
                                Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker


                                Hi Dennis,

                                On Aug 2, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

                                > Quite simply, Gordon, how would you explain Matthew 16.27/8 ? For
                                > my part I endorse everything that Jack has written.
                                > Dennis Goffin
                                > Chorleywood, UK

                                Verse 27 has it's base in Mark 8:38, verse 28 in Mark 9:1. So, I
                                think this is part of the language Mark created and was then redacted
                                by both Matthew and Luke to fit his characterization of Jesus Christ
                                as fulfilling that Daniel, Enoch expectation. So in a word this is a
                                Markan creation.

                                And for whom you endorse, I am glad you have found the stir of this
                                discussion helpful!

                                Gordon Raynal
                                Inman, SC
                                >




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Gordon Raynal
                                Hi Dennis, ... Yes. But I don t like that word merely applied to fine creativity! ... I don t actually draw a precise line in the wisdom sayings themselves,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 6 3:00 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Dennis,
                                  On Aug 3, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Dennis Goffin wrote:

                                  > Are you then saying, Gordon, that for example Mark 9.1 is not the
                                  > words of Jesus but merely a Markan creation ?

                                  Yes. But I don't like that word "merely" applied to fine creativity!

                                  > If so, where do you stop ?

                                  I don't actually draw a precise line in the wisdom sayings
                                  themselves, if that is what you mean. I think the report that you
                                  find in the back of "The Five Gospels" is a fairly good listing of
                                  the words that belong to the man Jesus, although my list is a little
                                  longer. But actually I prefer to think not simply in terms of any of
                                  those particular sayings as being definitely from Jesus' own lips,
                                  but rather from the original wisdom banter (creativity) when Jesus
                                  was alive. I think the hallmark of Jesus' own creativity is found in
                                  those red and pink parables you will find noted in the 5 Gospels.
                                  But to give you a "for instance" of what I'm suggesting (and this can
                                  only be a guess, of course), but I can well imagine that Jesus
                                  might have told the parable of Good Sam and a hearer/ fellow banter
                                  partner, let's say Mary Magdalene or Peter, responding with the
                                  aphorism, "Love your enemies" and Jesus repeating that, "yes, love
                                  your enemies." I think this careful kind of "sayings study" can
                                  really only get us that close to Jesus.

                                  > And are you also not opening the door for it to be said equally
                                  > that your favoured "sage" passages are likewise later creations ?

                                  No doubt, it is possible. Such as Robert Price thinks the whole
                                  character of Jesus is an invention and he concludes whether or not
                                  there was a historical figure back there, the materials we have
                                  simply don't give us access to him. Nothing new in this position.
                                  I had lovely discussions with my Freshman history professor about
                                  just this in the early '70s. I, however, think that we can find that
                                  common mission agenda at the base of all of the resources we have and
                                  the constitutional language that surrounds it, hence I think we can
                                  find "the voice print" of the late 20's and in that "the voice print"
                                  of Jesus, himself. And again, those words are wisdom words.

                                  > I would also like to make the point that many of the parables you
                                  > prize as part of your "wisdom" approach are on the subject of
                                  > apocalyptic eschatology.

                                  A couple of points here. One, I do think we find parables that come
                                  from after Jesus included in the writings and that is just what I'd
                                  expect. Second, "apocalyptic" is a genre. How one understands and
                                  uses that genre is not simply "one way, implying one clear belief
                                  structure." I actually love the genre in both OT and NT. Just
                                  taught Daniel as part of a Spring SS class. Great book! And some of
                                  my favorite movies are rooted in the genre. But I do not believe
                                  that what Jesus and friends were up to for a very short time in the
                                  late 20's is appropriately defined as "a millennialist apocalyptic
                                  prophetic movement" as so many seem to think. Why? Because the
                                  program itself is not millennialist and I think we can show how
                                  apocalyptic writings and many other kinds of writings were used to
                                  interpret the base program at a later time. Read such as Burton
                                  Mack's book on Q or Kloppenborg's book on the layers of Q to see how
                                  prophetic and apocalyptic language was brought to bear in
                                  reinterpreting the original program. Said, "program" or "religio-
                                  social initiative," if you prefer, could be and was recast in a
                                  number of ways. We find tensions and conflicts in those recastings.
                                  And per my long note... a program/ initiative produced a bureaucracy.
                                  That always produces tensions, even in the most stable of times:)!
                                  And so, because of growing reflections after the death of Jesus,
                                  after the further movement growth (more people, more homes, more
                                  towns and more diversity in those homes and towns), after further
                                  social development and in terms of the rapidly changing times
                                  themselves, we find this scurrying all over not only the Israelite
                                  scriptures, but so also over cultural ideas and beliefs in more and
                                  more places. And so, yes, in all of this and in the continuing
                                  marvelous creativity that was ignited we find parables created that
                                  are inclusive of the apocalyptic genre and original wisdom genre
                                  parables reinterpreted with the apocalyptic genre thought. But
                                  remember we also find the very same materials reinterpreted in other
                                  manners. G. Thomas for me, like Q, can be broken apart in layers and
                                  there we see the progression from an original aphorisms and wisdom
                                  parables gathering to what 'd refer to as a spiritual/ meditative
                                  layer of interpretation and on towards an abstract philosophizing
                                  layer (I do not think it is appropriate to call G. Thomas "Gnostic,"
                                  but in that latter stage, perhaps "proto-Gnostic"). So there was
                                  also development of that variety.

                                  Hope this helps,

                                  Gordon Raynal
                                  Inman, SC
                                  Dennis Goffin UK
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Ron Price
                                  ... Gordon, It seems to me that the JSem comes perilously close to circular reasoning on this issue. The fifth pillar of scholarly wisdom rejects an
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 11 3:28 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Gordon Raynal wrote:

                                    > The core ethical praxis language was presented
                                    > by Jesus in wisdom forms of communication. Even if one wants to
                                    > affirm Jesus also utilized apocalyptic speech, that speech was
                                    > secondary and not primary. Why say that? See the Sermon on the
                                    > Mount, Mark 4:33 ff, etc.

                                    Gordon,

                                    It seems to me that the JSem comes perilously close to circular reasoning on
                                    this issue. The 'fifth pillar of scholarly wisdom' rejects an eschatalogical
                                    Jesus, apparently before the completion of the source analysis. You appear
                                    to be doing the same here, for neither of your supporting texts (in their
                                    present form) go back before ca 70 CE when Mark was written - even worse if
                                    we take your own date for Mark!

                                    Bearing in mind that the Romans would have had no reason to crucify a mere
                                    wisdom teacher, I am curious to know if you have any better defence for your
                                    rejection of a primarily apocalyptic Jesus than quoting texts written at
                                    least 40 years after his death.

                                    Ron Price

                                    Derbyshire, UK

                                    Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                                  • Gordon Raynal
                                    ... Hi Ron, I ll let you take up the matter of circular reasoning with the Jesus Seminar. They are still alive and active and I seriously suggest that you
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Aug 11 7:32 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On Aug 11, 2008, at 6:28 AM, Ron Price wrote:

                                      > Gordon Raynal wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> The core ethical praxis language was presented
                                      >> by Jesus in wisdom forms of communication. Even if one wants to
                                      >> affirm Jesus also utilized apocalyptic speech, that speech was
                                      >> secondary and not primary. Why say that? See the Sermon on the
                                      >> Mount, Mark 4:33 ff, etc.
                                      >
                                      > Gordon,
                                      >
                                      > It seems to me that the JSem comes perilously close to circular
                                      > reasoning on
                                      > this issue. The 'fifth pillar of scholarly wisdom' rejects an
                                      > eschatalogical
                                      > Jesus, apparently before the completion of the source analysis. You
                                      > appear
                                      > to be doing the same here, for neither of your supporting texts (in
                                      > their
                                      > present form) go back before ca 70 CE when Mark was written - even
                                      > worse if
                                      > we take your own date for Mark!

                                      Hi Ron,

                                      I'll let you take up the matter of "circular reasoning" with the
                                      Jesus Seminar. They are still alive and active and I seriously
                                      suggest that you present this subject to them.

                                      What I do want to comment about here is the need, as Crossan, for
                                      example, has talked about, for subject clarification as pertains to
                                      "eschatology" and related terms. We really need some language
                                      clarity in this conversation. "Eschatology" gets tossed about, as
                                      does "apocalyptic" (a genre term) by many as if, a.) that is the only
                                      kind of eschatology and b.) as a kind of eschatology it is a uniform
                                      belief structure. I think it would be most helpful if we could have
                                      some term clarification in this important arena of description.
                                      Hence the language of millenarian eschatology versus non-millenarian
                                      eschatology, as the basic frame of options. And then within those
                                      frames careful descriptions about how different pieces of literature
                                      nuance those major options. And then, with the use of the
                                      apocalyptic genre, how it is utilized and framed in relationship to
                                      other genres. I think these conversations often get very confusing
                                      as it is not entirely clear what a given person is affirming when
                                      they use such terms as "eschatological" and "apocalyptic."

                                      I don't have time today to spell out this analysis in full, but I
                                      will again simply say here, I do not believe that the mission program
                                      that we find laid out and then repeated or commented on in a number
                                      of sources (Q, Thomas, Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Didache and
                                      indirectly in John) is itself "a millenniest" or "apocalyptic"
                                      program, but rather one that had a very "here and now" focus in it's
                                      foundation and expectation. And it is one that we see commented
                                      upon, developed, given rationale and filled out with more theological
                                      and ethical reflection from a number of different resources. And
                                      with this, the core speech that I can attribute to Jesus and his
                                      associates is wisdom speech. Wisdom speech is non-millennarian, but
                                      then it may be framed by millennarian thought and so utilized in that
                                      theological manner. In regard to the original program, I think the
                                      core motivation and expectation is well defined in that term Paul
                                      uses, "reconciliation." In terms of said original program (and not
                                      the later framing of it... hence the careful need to differentiate
                                      the original and the elaborations on top of the original) the "what
                                      to do" if rejected, is as "here and now" as one can state it (words
                                      about what to do if the householders don't receive the peace: "let
                                      your peace return to you," and what to do "the sent one's" only find
                                      rejection: "shake the dust off and move on." That the program came
                                      to be framed in a number of ways out of the broad resources found in
                                      the TANAK, should come as no surprise. And let me just emphasize
                                      this: If a reconciliation movement actually works, unlike a partisan
                                      movement that is built upon the gathering of like minded or closely
                                      similar minded folks, then what one will surely expect is that said
                                      reconciliation movement will have a number of voices/ viewpoints/
                                      sectarian views therein. As said movement moves from a first
                                      generation action plan to an enduring movement complete with a
                                      growing bureaucracy and therefore greater number of defined roles,
                                      power structures and rationales, then one should expect to find in
                                      such a mixed movement a variety of ideas about roles, power,
                                      rationales, etc. And do we find this? Yes, indeed we do. And
                                      because we can find these sorts of things it is possible to sketch
                                      out what was key and core and some of the developments therein.
                                      >
                                      > Bearing in mind that the Romans would have had no reason to crucify
                                      > a mere
                                      > wisdom teacher, I am curious to know if you have any better defence
                                      > for your
                                      > rejection of a primarily apocalyptic Jesus than quoting texts
                                      > written at
                                      > least 40 years after his death.

                                      You state this as if it is a truism. Two things. Let me remind you,
                                      if you do not know, that the stories tell us that Aesop was tossed
                                      off a cliff for the telling of his fables. "Mere wisdom teacher"
                                      makes it sound as if this is a generically safe activity that would
                                      never rise to the level of making for real trouble. About that
                                      alone, I disagree. But more importantly this view leaves out the
                                      very connection of the wisdom speech and "the reconciliation
                                      program." Need I remind you of the danger of actual reconciliation
                                      movements in this world? Seriously... just run the list in the last
                                      century of those who came to espouse serious reconciliation work and
                                      so consider this list of names: Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr.,
                                      Malcolm X, Anwar Sadat, Yitzak Rabin, Nelson Mandella (the only one
                                      only to have to spend years in jail). In the face of authoritarian
                                      regimes or very discordant times in particular places, those who
                                      espouse reconciliation are hardly doing safe work. And if you go
                                      down this list, one thing that is notable is that such persons often
                                      arouse great enmity by doing reconciliation work within "their own
                                      people." Just taking Malcolm X, as an example, he had a life
                                      changing experience by going to Mecca and left fiery rhetoric behind
                                      and was killed by some loyal to those who considered him a champion.

                                      And to your closing point. I would simply invite you to do a careful
                                      study of what organized activity Jesus was asking his followers to do
                                      and a careful outlaying of the different stages of the development
                                      therein that we can isolate. This isn't "a circular" invitation, but
                                      an invitation to define an original core and differentiate as best
                                      you can the stages of development you can find. And even if you
                                      conclude that the original core is best described as a millennialist
                                      program, I'll still invite you to focus on that wisdom language
                                      **as** wisdom language and consider the place/ role/ function/
                                      meaning of that language in relationship to the program.

                                      Gordon Raynal
                                      Inman, SC
                                      >
                                      > Ron Price
                                      >
                                      > Derbyshire, UK
                                      >
                                      > Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.