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Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed in his communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel, never speaks of any miracles that
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 29, 2008
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      To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed in his
      communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel, never speaks of
      any miracles that Jesus wrought, or of Jesus as a miracle worker. Am I
      correct in thinking that this is the case?

      And if it is, how is Paul's silence on this matter to be explained?

      Yours,

      Jeffrey

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson To: Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:40 PM Subject: [XTalk] Paul s silence on
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 29, 2008
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
        To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:40 PM
        Subject: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker


        > To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed in his
        > communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel, never speaks of
        > any miracles that Jesus wrought, or of Jesus as a miracle worker. Am I
        > correct in thinking that this is the case?
        >
        > And if it is, how is Paul's silence on this matter to be explained?
        >
        > Yours,
        >
        > Jeffrey
        >
        > --
        > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        > Chicago, Illinois
        > e-mail jgibson000@...

        Simply because, to Paul, it was no big deal for one of God's "chosen" to
        perform healings. Paul certainly considered himself in that league, hence
        Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul...and the
        power of the Gospel is the "good news" of Jesus (Christ Crucified).

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX
      • Ttimvee@aol.com
        Jeffrey, I have some observations on this. First, we don t know that Paul was deliberately silent on Jesus as a miracle worker, what we know as far as we are
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 29, 2008
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          Jeffrey,

          I have some observations on this.

          First, we don't know that Paul was deliberately silent on Jesus as a miracle
          worker, what we know as far as we are able is that he didn't make reference
          to any of Jesus' miracles in the writings we have from him.

          That said, if he talks of his own miracles as attesting to the power of the
          Gospel, and for him Jesus is the central Gospel figure then seen in that light
          his own miracles would be as nothing to what he knew of Jesus. His own
          experience of Jesus was as so much more than a miracle worker, so to refer to him
          as such might be to detract from the message about Jesus that he Paul was
          always trying to get across. In other words, he had no intention of 'selling' or
          appearing to sell Jesus as (just) a miracle worker! That might be almost
          like putting himself and Jesus on the same level!

          Again, he was always eager to state his own credentials as an apostle but
          that might have created its own dangers. Other people were probably telling
          stories of Jesus miracles, people who might conceivably have been present at the
          time. If Paul had started telling them he might have feared that his claims
          to apostleship would be thrown under the spotlight again by people eager to
          point out that he hadn't actually been there.

          Finally, Paul had had his own first hand encounter with Jesus in a totally
          different way and for him that was worth a hundred second hand miracle
          stories.It's a long time since I've looked at any of this, but Paul always seems to
          be more comfortable telling the story of his own encounters with Jesus (in
          whatever way) and those members of the twelve that he had meetings with than
          second hand stories. Perhaps because he felt that if he restricted himself to
          his own personal first hand experience he was on safer ground.

          Hope these rather hasty thoughts are worth something.

          Regards

          Tim Vickers








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ken Olson
          Jeffrey, What are the miracles Paul he says performed? How can we tell what he meant by SHMEIOIJ TE KAI TERASIN KAI DUNAMESIN (2 Cor 2:12)? Best, Ken ken
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 29, 2008
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            Jeffrey,

            What are the miracles Paul he says performed? How can we tell what he meant by SHMEIOIJ TE KAI TERASIN KAI DUNAMESIN (2 Cor 2:12)?

            Best,

            Ken

            ken Olson, PhD student Duke University



            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            From: jgibson000@...
            Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:40:46 -0500
            Subject: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker




















            To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed in his

            communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel, never speaks of

            any miracles that Jesus wrought, or of Jesus as a miracle worker. Am I

            correct in thinking that this is the case?



            And if it is, how is Paul's silence on this matter to be explained?



            Yours,



            Jeffrey



            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

            Chicago, Illinois

            e-mail jgibson000@...

























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Paul doesn t specify what his miracles were, does he? Nor, so far as I can see, did I say he did. In any case, whether Paul did or didn t do miracles,
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 29, 2008
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              Ken Olson wrote:
              > Jeffrey,
              >
              > What are the miracles Paul he says performed? How can we tell what he meant by SHMEIOIJ TE KAI TERASIN KAI DUNAMESIN (2 Cor 2:12)?
              >
              Paul doesn't specify what his miracles were, does he? Nor, so far as I
              can see, did I say he did.

              In any case, whether Paul did or didn't do miracles, (though see Rom
              15:17 and 1 Corinthians 2.4-5), let alone what his miracles were, is
              not my real concern. It's why he didn't mention Jesus as a miracle
              worker and how this has been explained..

              Jeffrey

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Gordon Raynal
              Hi to all, I sent a brief note to Jeffrey offline. I m having a most busy week, but he encouraged me to send this to the group. I ll just repeat this very
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                Hi to all,

                I sent a brief note to Jeffrey offline. I'm having a most busy week,
                but he encouraged me to send this to the group. I'll just repeat
                this very brief note here:

                On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:40 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

                > To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed in his
                > communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel, never
                > speaks of
                > any miracles that Jesus wrought, or of Jesus as a miracle worker.
                > Am I
                > correct in thinking that this is the case?
                >
                > And if it is, how is Paul's silence on this matter to be explained?
                >
                > Yours,
                >
                > Jeffrey
                >
                I think this is right on target and the explanation is easy: the
                historical fellow Jesus wasn't "a miracle worker." All those stories
                and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.
                The key source for these stories? The Elijah/ Elisha cycle and the
                midrashing of the prophetic utterances about such as "sight to the
                blind, the lame walk," etc. The reason for this important creation?
                Because Jesus came to be understood as one like, but greater than
                Moses and Elijah and the authentic Jesus speech was about "the
                Kingdom of God." Mix that characterization with those Scriptural
                precedents and a good dose of theological imagination and voila...
                two different sorts of "miracle traditions" were born: the Markan/
                Synoptic form of a wandering exorcist who could also do Elijah/
                Elisha like, but much greater feats (feeding far more; not making an
                axe head float, but walking on water; not calling down lightning, but
                stilling the storm) and the Johannine "Signs" type where Jesus is
                decidedly not an exorcist, but does healings and other wonders as the
                agent of the New Creation (the Word made flesh).

                That's what I wrote Jeffrey last evening. Must run, but I'd simply
                add that after the Roman-Jewish war Mark and John show us two key
                strategies for addressing the trauma and two key hermeneutical
                choices about how to do so. So, Paul didn't write anything because
                there was nothing to write about in this regard.

                Gordon Raynal
                Inman, SC
              • thebedards2000
                Are we not missing something in this discussion? Paul s silence on Jesus as a miracle worker is not because Jesus was not a miracleworker. Paul is not that
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                  Are we not missing something in this discussion? Paul's silence on
                  Jesus as a miracle worker is not because Jesus was not a
                  miracleworker. Paul is not that interested in Jesus as a teacher
                  either. Although Paul does show some knowledge of the earthly Jesus
                  (despite some claims to the contrary), he is more interested in the
                  glorified and risen Christ.

                  Stephen J. Bedard
                  www.1peter315.wordpress.com
                • Tony Buglass
                  Gordon wrote: All those stories and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple. The literary form of the stories is often midrashic, and
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                    Gordon wrote:
                    All those stories
                    and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.

                    The literary form of the stories is often midrashic, and often relates to the Elijah-Elisha cycle. Does that necessarily mean that Jesus never did anything like that? It seems to me that we have an assumption regarding midrash similar to the assumption Bultmann made about myth and mythology - if it is mythological, by definition it cannot be historical. Why? Is it not possible that Jesus did do signs and wonders (a la Ehrman, and also Theissen "The Historical Jesus p.281ff, Dunn "Jesus Remembered", etc).

                    As far as Paul is concerned, it is clear that while he knows quite a lot about the historical Jesus, he is not concerned to pass on Jesus tradition in his letters. This is a question of genre - he writes letters to deal with issues that arise in 'his' churches, and is not concerned to repeat what he has already done. He probably shared what he knew of Jesus tradition in his initial stays in the places where he missioned. Kloppenberg suggests that Paul knew the sayings-tradition because it was strong where he spent his early years in the faith, but he avoided it later because it had developed into a form with a theology which he didn't like, and which later tended to Gnosticism (Q-Thomas Reader, p.114).

                    Cheers,
                    Rev Tony Buglass
                    Superintendent Minister
                    Upper Calder Methodist Circuit

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tony Buglass
                    Oops. I sent off my last reply without inserting a key comment. (I know I m ready for my holidays...) What I meant to say was as below. Gordon wrote: All
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                      Oops. I sent off my last reply without inserting a key comment. (I know I'm ready for my holidays...) What I meant to say was as below.

                      Gordon wrote:
                      All those stories
                      and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.

                      The literary form of the stories is often midrashic, and often relates to the Elijah-Elisha cycle. Does that necessarily mean that Jesus never did anything like that? It seems to me that we have an assumption regarding midrash similar to the assumption Bultmann made about myth and mythology - if it is mythological, by definition it cannot be historical. Why? Is it not possible that Jesus did do signs and wonders (a la Ehrman, and also Theissen "The Historical Jesus p.281ff, Dunn "Jesus Remembered", etc), that there was a historical kernel, which was embellished and reshaped by midrash in order to draw out the perceived meaning?

                      As far as Paul is concerned, it is clear that while he knows quite a lot about the historical Jesus, he is not concerned to pass on Jesus tradition in his letters. This is a question of genre - he writes letters to deal with issues that arise in 'his' churches, and is not concerned to repeat what he has already done. He probably shared what he knew of Jesus tradition in his initial stays in the places where he missioned. Kloppenberg suggests that Paul knew the sayings-tradition because it was strong where he spent his early years in the faith, but he avoided it later because it had developed into a form with a theology which he didn't like, and which later tended to Gnosticism (Q-Thomas Reader, p.114).

                      Cheers,
                      Rev Tony Buglass
                      Superintendent Minister
                      Upper Calder Methodist Circuit


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Gregory Leiby
                      Jeffrey, Paul does refer to Jesus coming back from the dead in his physical body, which to my understanding is the greatest miricle of all. -Greg Gregory Leiby
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                        Jeffrey,

                        Paul does refer to Jesus coming back from the dead in his physical body, which to my understanding is the greatest miricle of all.

                        -Greg



                        Gregory Leiby
                        Greenville, SC, USA
                        http://www.theleibys.com/


                        --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:

                        > From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
                        > Subject: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker
                        > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 4:40 PM
                        > To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed
                        > in his
                        > communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel,
                        > never speaks of
                        > any miracles that Jesus wrought, or of Jesus as a miracle
                        > worker. Am I
                        > correct in thinking that this is the case?
                        >
                        > And if it is, how is Paul's silence on this matter to
                        > be explained?
                        >
                        > Yours,
                        >
                        > Jeffrey
                        >
                        > --
                        > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                        > Chicago, Illinois
                        > e-mail jgibson000@...
                        >
                        >
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                      • Jack Kilmon
                        ... From: Gordon Raynal To: Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:31 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul s silence on
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...>
                          To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:31 AM
                          Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker


                          > Hi to all,
                          >
                          > I sent a brief note to Jeffrey offline. I'm having a most busy week,
                          > but he encouraged me to send this to the group. I'll just repeat
                          > this very brief note here:
                          >
                          > On Jul 29, 2008, at 4:40 PM, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                          >
                          >> To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed in his
                          >> communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel, never
                          >> speaks of
                          >> any miracles that Jesus wrought, or of Jesus as a miracle worker.
                          >> Am I
                          >> correct in thinking that this is the case?
                          >>
                          >> And if it is, how is Paul's silence on this matter to be explained?
                          >>
                          >> Yours,
                          >>
                          >> Jeffrey
                          >>
                          > I think this is right on target and the explanation is easy: the
                          > historical fellow Jesus wasn't "a miracle worker." All those stories
                          > and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.
                          > The key source for these stories? The Elijah/ Elisha cycle and the
                          > midrashing of the prophetic utterances about such as "sight to the
                          > blind, the lame walk," etc. The reason for this important creation?
                          > Because Jesus came to be understood as one like, but greater than
                          > Moses and Elijah and the authentic Jesus speech was about "the
                          > Kingdom of God." Mix that characterization with those Scriptural
                          > precedents and a good dose of theological imagination and voila...
                          > two different sorts of "miracle traditions" were born: the Markan/
                          > Synoptic form of a wandering exorcist who could also do Elijah/
                          > Elisha like, but much greater feats (feeding far more; not making an
                          > axe head float, but walking on water; not calling down lightning, but
                          > stilling the storm) and the Johannine "Signs" type where Jesus is
                          > decidedly not an exorcist, but does healings and other wonders as the
                          > agent of the New Creation (the Word made flesh).
                          >
                          > That's what I wrote Jeffrey last evening. Must run, but I'd simply
                          > add that after the Roman-Jewish war Mark and John show us two key
                          > strategies for addressing the trauma and two key hermeneutical
                          > choices about how to do so. So, Paul didn't write anything because
                          > there was nothing to write about in this regard.
                          >
                          > Gordon Raynal
                          > Inman, SC

                          My response, as yet not posted, was:

                          It may be that Paul, who did learn about the earthly Jesus from his family
                          and disciples, considered the healing miracles commonplace for a righteous
                          man of Jesus' status. In the 1st century, disease and disability was
                          considered the result of sin...even a parent's sin. Hysterical infirmities
                          which even today consist of skin rashes (any skin eruption was considered
                          "leprosy"...Aramaic garba), blindness, deafness, paralysis or "possession"
                          are rapidly cured by someone a victim considers has authority from God to
                          dispense of the cause...sin. Simon/Peter/Kefa and the other disciples did
                          it (Acts 3:1-16) and Paul also did it (Acts 19:11-12; 28:7-9). Rumor and
                          oral legends later pile on more spectacular "signs" by the end of the 1st
                          century but these healings, which even Paul performed..were considered as
                          "part of the territory" and not the focus of Pauline Christology.

                          Jack Kilmon
                          San Antonio, TX
                        • Bob Schacht
                          ... I think that last sentence holds the key. Paul was obviously not a historian, and we must not expect him to have the interests of a historian. Paul was
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                            At 06:14 AM 7/30/2008, Jack Kilmon wrote:

                            >----- Original Message -----
                            >From: "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...>
                            >To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                            >Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:31 AM
                            >Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker
                            >
                            >
                            > > Hi to all,
                            > >
                            > >... I think this is right on target and the explanation is easy: the
                            > > historical fellow Jesus wasn't "a miracle worker." All those stories
                            > > and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.
                            > > The key source for these stories? The Elijah/ Elisha cycle and the
                            > > midrashing of the prophetic utterances about such as "sight to the
                            > > blind, the lame walk," etc. ...
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >My response... was:
                            >
                            >It may be that Paul, who did learn about the earthly Jesus from his family
                            >and disciples, considered the healing miracles commonplace for a righteous
                            >man of Jesus' status. ... Rumor and
                            >oral legends later pile on more spectacular "signs" by the end of the 1st
                            >century but these healings, which even Paul performed..were considered as
                            >"part of the territory" and not the focus of Pauline Christology.

                            I think that last sentence holds the key. Paul was obviously not a
                            historian, and we must not expect him to have the interests of a historian.
                            Paul was pushing a different understanding of the significance of Jesus,
                            and he might have viewed whatever "miracle worker" activities Jesus may
                            have been known for as a distraction.

                            Some evidence for this perspective may be provided by Acts 16:16-19, in
                            which Paul is hostile to miracle-workers (if divination may be included in
                            that category), even when it is favorable to him.

                            Too bad we don't know what he thought of Simon Magus :-)

                            Bob Schacht
                            University of Hawaii


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Kenneth Litwak
                               I want to note Bob s point that Paul does not present himself as an historian.  I think the question of why Paul would or would not choose to include
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 30, 2008
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                                 I want to note Bob's point that Paul does not present himself as an historian.  I think the question of why Paul would or would not choose to include accounts he had heard about Jesus is in the same category as questions about why Luke says something of Paul that Paul does not say of himself or that Paul says of himself or teaches in a letter that is not recorded in Acts.  The simplest view is that the issue was of no relevance to what Paul or Luke were doing. 

                                  Whatever Paul may have known about Jesus, Paul is only going to record those items that aid Paul in his purpose.   I think that it is inappropriate to assume that, since Paul does not mention specific acts of Jesus in any extant letters that therefore Paul knew of none. While it may sound like a cliche, I think we need to adhere to the premise that  absence of evidence (that Paul knew of Jesus' miracles) is not evidence of absence.

                              Ken Litwak

                              --- On Wed, 7/30/08, Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...> wrote:
                              From: Bob Schacht <r_schacht@...>
                              Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker
                              To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 10:55 AM











                              At 06:14 AM 7/30/2008, Jack Kilmon wrote:



                              >----- Original Message -----

                              >From: "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@charter. net>

                              >To: <crosstalk2@yahoogro ups.com>

                              >Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:31 AM

                              >Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker

                              >

                              >

                              > > Hi to all,

                              > >

                              > >... I think this is right on target and the explanation is easy: the

                              > > historical fellow Jesus wasn't "a miracle worker." All those stories

                              > > and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.

                              > > The key source for these stories? The Elijah/ Elisha cycle and the

                              > > midrashing of the prophetic utterances about such as "sight to the

                              > > blind, the lame walk," etc. ...

                              > >

                              >

                              >

                              >My response... was:

                              >

                              >It may be that Paul, who did learn about the earthly Jesus from his family

                              >and disciples, considered the healing miracles commonplace for a righteous

                              >man of Jesus' status. ... Rumor and

                              >oral legends later pile on more spectacular "signs" by the end of the 1st

                              >century but these healings, which even Paul performed..were considered as

                              >"part of the territory" and not the focus of Pauline Christology.



                              I think that last sentence holds the key. Paul was obviously not a

                              historian, and we must not expect him to have the interests of a historian.

                              Paul was pushing a different understanding of the significance of Jesus,

                              and he might have viewed whatever "miracle worker" activities Jesus may

                              have been known for as a distraction.



                              Some evidence for this perspective may be provided by Acts 16:16-19, in

                              which Paul is hostile to miracle-workers (if divination may be included in

                              that category), even when it is favorable to him.



                              Too bad we don't know what he thought of Simon Magus :-)


                               

















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Gordon Raynal
                              Hi Tony, ... Hope you have a good one! ... Well, one would need some actual evidence to answer any sort of does this necessarily mean... kind of question.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 31, 2008
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                                Hi Tony,
                                On Jul 30, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Tony Buglass wrote:

                                > Oops. I sent off my last reply without inserting a key comment.
                                > (I know I'm ready for my holidays...) What I meant to say was as
                                > below.

                                Hope you have a good one!
                                >
                                > Gordon wrote:
                                > All those stories
                                > and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.
                                >
                                > The literary form of the stories is often midrashic, and often
                                > relates to the Elijah-Elisha cycle. Does that necessarily mean that
                                > Jesus never did anything like that?

                                Well, one would need some actual evidence to answer any sort of "does
                                this necessarily mean..." kind of question. Right! And Paul gives
                                us none. Q1 and Early Thomas (and I accept these) give us none.
                                So on to the gospels...

                                > It seems to me that we have an assumption regarding midrash similar
                                > to the assumption Bultmann made about myth and mythology - if it is
                                > mythological, by definition it cannot be historical. Why?

                                I've got to run again in a bit... (a funeral to attend to, plus other
                                usual weekly things), but for a short answer. In the first place,
                                would you not say that when you typically pick up and read a work of
                                Wonder-filled writing that historical investigation **is not** the
                                first thing one is being invited to take in? This may make some
                                howl... but if you are a Narnia fan... let us say, then reading with
                                "the historical investigation hat on" is sorta going to not get you
                                to the very heart of the kind of human communication you're reading.
                                That said, if one concludes that one is reading this kind of genre of
                                communication, that kind of genre is simply not prime fodder for
                                being able to provide "historical kernels." (move to below)

                                > Is it not possible that Jesus did do signs and wonders (a la
                                > Ehrman, and also Theissen "The Historical Jesus p.281ff, Dunn
                                > "Jesus Remembered", etc), that there was a historical kernel, which
                                > was embellished and reshaped by midrash in order to draw out the
                                > perceived meaning?

                                Now some wonder filled stories interlace specific historical memories
                                with the wonder materials, but to figure out any "kernels" one needs
                                some actual data **outside** such works to know what those "kernels"
                                actually are. All manner of "could be," "might be," "maybe"
                                thoughts can be spun out, but without data then frankly we're just
                                talking guess work. Now surely such as Ehrman, Theissen, Dunn and
                                many others want to in some way characterize the Gospels as rooted in
                                historical witness and then "beefed up," let us say, with imaginative
                                writing. I disagree. I think these authors knew exactly what they
                                were doing and that was writing ***truly creative theological/
                                ethical wonder works***. And they weren't doing this de novo, rather
                                out of a long heritage of folks who did the very same sort of thing
                                (like telling stories of old prophets who could call down lightning,
                                make axe heads float, etc.)

                                And then that brings me to particularly the healing wonders. Now
                                perhaps Jesus was a rather talented folk healer. (the thought is
                                entirely a happy one, as far as I'm concerned). But what we have are
                                two distinctly different kinds of healer portraitures. The Markan
                                one is called that of a wandering exorcist. Problem is those stories
                                aren't stories about a wandering exorcist folk healer, but rather the
                                Christ, the Son of God, who has theological conversations with demons
                                and who cures diseases with a touch or just a word about forgiveness
                                from YHWH Elohim. To cast Jesus as "an exorcist folk healer" is to
                                ignore the stories, basically "commonize" his actions and so make
                                Jesus into "just another...." John's approach is different. As
                                regards healing, his Jesus is the WORD made flesh and he does seven
                                New Creation Wonders... that are Signs of the Kingdom of God ( those
                                4 healing ones: lame man walks, child saved, blind man sees and
                                Lazarus back from death are ***not*** non- exorcist folk healer
                                works!) So we have two kinds of traditions and those differences are
                                based on the core theological character profile being presented.

                                So... we have no reports. If one affirms some kind of "kernel" about
                                these stories, we have no outside sources to tell us what said
                                "kernels" might be. And then to cast Jesus as a kind of a guy who
                                was a talented sort of folk healer... well, that is clearly ***NOT***
                                what any of the Gospels want to do.

                                So again... Paul gives us zero evidence, as do Q1 and early Thomas.
                                The Gospels give us no historical evidence and there's none outside.
                                Not hard to come to my assessment based on this evidentiary basis:)!
                                But then frankly, I sort of wonder why so many seem interested in
                                "commonizing" Jesus in this regard and guessing about "kernels."
                                Even if Jesus were an especially talented folk healer, he was just
                                one of many. I would be entirely delighted to find out he was a good
                                doctor, so to speak. Neat! But without evidence I certainly don't
                                want to play the "kernel" guessing game.
                                >
                                > As far as Paul is concerned, it is clear that while he knows quite
                                > a lot about the historical Jesus, he is not concerned to pass on
                                > Jesus tradition in his letters. This is a question of genre - he
                                > writes letters to deal with issues that arise in 'his' churches,
                                > and is not concerned to repeat what he has already done. He
                                > probably shared what he knew of Jesus tradition in his initial
                                > stays in the places where he missioned. Kloppenberg suggests that
                                > Paul knew the sayings-tradition because it was strong where he
                                > spent his early years in the faith, but he avoided it later because
                                > it had developed into a form with a theology which he didn't like,
                                > and which later tended to Gnosticism (Q-Thomas Reader, p.114).

                                I'll just leave this paragraph, but only to say that some of these
                                notes seem to want us to get into these issues by basically guessing
                                about Paul's psychological motivations. I'm not very impressed with
                                our capacity to be successful in this endeavor:)! Figuring out the
                                motivations of my living wife is a dicey enough proposition:)! (much
                                better to ask her, eh:)!) Proposing we can figure this out for long
                                dead people, while maybe a lot of fun, is hardly the sort of way I
                                want to go about figuring out history:)!

                                Sorry for the rushed nature of this, but I do have to run.


                                Have a Good vacation!

                                Gordon Raynal
                                Inman, SC
                                >
                              • Daniel Grolin
                                Dear Tony & Gordon, I would like to object to the proposition that the literary form of the stories are often midrashic . Not because it isn t true, but
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 31, 2008
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                                  Dear Tony & Gordon,

                                  I would like to object to the proposition that the literary form of the stories are "often midrashic". Not because it isn't true, but because it isn't helpful. The manner in which the term is used is simply too broad.

                                  Strack and Stemberger state ("Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash", p. 235) that Midrash cannot really be defined, only described (which is at the heart of the problem), and they do so as follows: "a literature, oral or written, which stands in direct relationship to a fixed canonical text ..." This furthermore includes not only the text as they stand, but also the events they refer to. Of course, taking the terms so broadly you might call the Gospels midrash, but that is hardly helpful. Almost any surviving Jewish text (and a great many Christian) can be termed midrash. In other words Midrash is just "intertext". I object to the use of Midrash, because it seems to imply that there is Jewish/Israelite literature that does what the Gospels supposedly did by adopting stories from the Elijah-Elisha cycle (and call it "midrash"). As far as I have been able to learn that is not the case. The Gospels do have something that looks like a form of Midrash,
                                  namely Pesher.

                                  Of course as Vernon K. Robbin has pointed out the appearance of intertext does not mean that there wasn't orality in the mix. One could posit an oral story that resembled a written text which then acquired features of that text in the retelling and/or writing.

                                  I don't know if Jesus did anything that looked like the stories that we have from the Gospels, but looking over prophetic movements of first century Palestine (per Richard Horsley's description) it seems that it was common for the leader to promise miracles that recalled prophetic figures of the past. How implausible is it that Jesus, the Gallilean prophet, did something similar with the figures of the great prophets of the Northern Kingdom? That he said he would do it and that it was believed that he did? I don't find it all that implausible.

                                  Regards,

                                  Daniel


                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Tony Buglass <tonybuglass@...>
                                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008 5:07:39 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker


                                  Oops. I sent off my last reply without inserting a key comment. (I know I'm ready for my holidays...) What I meant to say was as below.

                                  Gordon wrote:
                                  All those stories
                                  and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.

                                  The literary form of the stories is often midrashic, and often relates to the Elijah-Elisha cycle. Does that necessarily mean that Jesus never did anything like that? It seems to me that we have an assumption regarding midrash similar to the assumption Bultmann made about myth and mythology - if it is mythological, by definition it cannot be historical. Why? Is it not possible that Jesus did do signs and wonders (a la Ehrman, and also Theissen "The Historical Jesus p.281ff, Dunn "Jesus Remembered", etc), that there was a historical kernel, which was embellished and reshaped by midrash in order to draw out the perceived meaning?

                                  As far as Paul is concerned, it is clear that while he knows quite a lot about the historical Jesus, he is not concerned to pass on Jesus tradition in his letters. This is a question of genre - he writes letters to deal with issues that arise in 'his' churches, and is not concerned to repeat what he has already done. He probably shared what he knew of Jesus tradition in his initial stays in the places where he missioned. Kloppenberg suggests that Paul knew the sayings-tradition because it was strong where he spent his early years in the faith, but he avoided it later because it had developed into a form with a theology which he didn't like, and which later tended to Gnosticism (Q-Thomas Reader, p.114).

                                  Cheers,
                                  Rev Tony Buglass
                                  Superintendent Minister
                                  Upper Calder Methodist Circuit


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                                • Gordon Raynal
                                  Hi Daniel, ... While you find midrash too broad and an unhelpful way to categorize the story writers imaginative process, I will simply have to disagree. One
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 31, 2008
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                                    Hi Daniel,

                                    On Jul 31, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Daniel Grolin wrote:

                                    > Dear Tony & Gordon,
                                    >
                                    > I would like to object to the proposition that the literary form of
                                    > the stories are "often midrashic". Not because it isn't true, but
                                    > because it isn't helpful. The manner in which the term is used is
                                    > simply too broad.
                                    >
                                    > Strack and Stemberger state ("Introduction to the Talmud and
                                    > Midrash", p. 235) that Midrash cannot really be defined, only
                                    > described (which is at the heart of the problem), and they do so as
                                    > follows: "a literature, oral or written, which stands in direct
                                    > relationship to a fixed canonical text ..." This furthermore
                                    > includes not only the text as they stand, but also the events they
                                    > refer to. Of course, taking the terms so broadly you might call the
                                    > Gospels midrash, but that is hardly helpful. Almost any surviving
                                    > Jewish text (and a great many Christian) can be termed midrash. In
                                    > other words Midrash is just "intertext". I object to the use of
                                    > Midrash, because it seems to imply that there is Jewish/Israelite
                                    > literature that does what the Gospels supposedly did by adopting
                                    > stories from the Elijah-Elisha cycle (and call it "midrash"). As
                                    > far as I have been able to learn that is not the case. The Gospels
                                    > do have something that looks like a form of Midrash,
                                    > namely Pesher.
                                    >
                                    > Of course as Vernon K. Robbin has pointed out the appearance of
                                    > intertext does not mean that there wasn't orality in the mix. One
                                    > could posit an oral story that resembled a written text which then
                                    > acquired features of that text in the retelling and/or writing.

                                    While you find midrash too broad and an unhelpful way to categorize
                                    the story writers imaginative process, I will simply have to
                                    disagree. One can see this process within the confines of the Hebrew
                                    Scriptures (look at the Flight from Egypt narrative as a prime
                                    example (the layers of early and later story telling that are in the
                                    received text we have and then the various ways the story is played
                                    over in the Psalms, the Prophets and then the extra Biblical
                                    writings). I find this sort very illuminative of the story telling
                                    traditions and the connections to the Gospels are blatantly obvious
                                    in many ways. Take, for example, the opening movements in the
                                    Synoptic stories of Jesus... Israel of old went to the waters, passed
                                    through the waters, spent 40 years in the wilderness, entered the
                                    land in triumph/ Jesus the Christ recapitulates this movement in
                                    Mark's Gospel... to the river, through the river, 40 (days not years)
                                    in the wilderness and then he enters the land victoriously casting
                                    out demons, not Canaanites. The play over plot framings, particular
                                    stories, particular theological and ethical and communal issues is
                                    directly related to this old, old pattern of story telling which we
                                    clearly can see within the bounds of TANAK and then see practiced,
                                    for example, from Mark to Matthew and Luke. So we will have to
                                    disagree here, and...
                                    >
                                    > I don't know if Jesus did anything that looked like the stories
                                    > that we have from the Gospels, but looking over prophetic movements
                                    > of first century Palestine (per Richard Horsley's description) it
                                    > seems that it was common for the leader to promise miracles that
                                    > recalled prophetic figures of the past. How implausible is it that
                                    > Jesus, the Gallilean prophet, did something similar with the
                                    > figures of the great prophets of the Northern Kingdom? That he said
                                    > he would do it and that it was believed that he did? I don't find
                                    > it all that implausible.

                                    here, as well. I also don't agree that Jesus, the historical fellow,
                                    is best understood under the rubric of "prophet." That is certainly
                                    one of the ways he came to be cast later on in the rich soup of
                                    titles and roles ascribed to him. No argument there. But on the
                                    basis of what I think we can know about the authentic speech of Jesus
                                    and the way the core of that authentic speech was preserved (both in
                                    words and other sorts of formulations) I think the best "position
                                    description for him (or title) is that of "a sage" or better "a
                                    Jewish wisdom word artist!" Why? Because I think what we can know
                                    of the fellow is found in the wisdom aphorisms and parables. Now,
                                    could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing against
                                    that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view

                                    Gordon Raynal,
                                    Inman, SC
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    >
                                    > Daniel
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Tony Buglass <tonybuglass@...>
                                    > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, 30 July, 2008 5:07:39 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Oops. I sent off my last reply without inserting a key comment.
                                    > (I know I'm ready for my holidays...) What I meant to say was as
                                    > below.
                                    >
                                    > Gordon wrote:
                                    > All those stories
                                    > and yes, the healing ones, are midrashic creations plain and simple.
                                    >
                                    > The literary form of the stories is often midrashic, and often
                                    > relates to the Elijah-Elisha cycle. Does that necessarily mean that
                                    > Jesus never did anything like that? It seems to me that we have an
                                    > assumption regarding midrash similar to the assumption Bultmann
                                    > made about myth and mythology - if it is mythological, by
                                    > definition it cannot be historical. Why? Is it not possible that
                                    > Jesus did do signs and wonders (a la Ehrman, and also Theissen "The
                                    > Historical Jesus p.281ff, Dunn "Jesus Remembered", etc), that there
                                    > was a historical kernel, which was embellished and reshaped by
                                    > midrash in order to draw out the perceived meaning?
                                    >
                                    > As far as Paul is concerned, it is clear that while he knows quite
                                    > a lot about the historical Jesus, he is not concerned to pass on
                                    > Jesus tradition in his letters. This is a question of genre - he
                                    > writes letters to deal with issues that arise in 'his' churches,
                                    > and is not concerned to repeat what he has already done. He
                                    > probably shared what he knew of Jesus tradition in his initial
                                    > stays in the places where he missioned. Kloppenberg suggests that
                                    > Paul knew the sayings-tradition because it was strong where he
                                    > spent his early years in the faith, but he avoided it later because
                                    > it had developed into a form with a theology which he didn't like,
                                    > and which later tended to Gnosticism (Q-Thomas Reader, p.114).
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > Rev Tony Buglass
                                    > Superintendent Minister
                                    > Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                    ... Leaving aside the question of whether a resurrection (an eschatological event) would have been placed by first century Jews in the same phenomenological
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Aug 1, 2008
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                                      Gregory Leiby wrote:
                                      > Jeffrey,
                                      >
                                      > Paul does refer to Jesus coming back from the dead in his physical body, which to my understanding is the greatest miricle of all.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Leaving aside the question of whether a resurrection (an eschatological
                                      event) would have been placed by first century Jews in the same
                                      phenomenological category as healings, exorcisms, bread multiplications,
                                      etc., what you overlook here is the fact that Paul (and the synoptic
                                      tradition) nowhere assumes or presents the Jesus' resurrection as
                                      something that Jesus performed. It is always in his (and the
                                      tradition's) view something God does to Jesus.

                                      Jeffrey

                                      --
                                      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                      Chicago, Illinois
                                      e-mail jgibson000@...
                                    • Daniel Grolin
                                      ... From: Gordon Raynal To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 1 August, 2008 1:33:05 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul s silence on
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Aug 2, 2008
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                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: Gordon Raynal <scudi1@...>
                                        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, 1 August, 2008 1:33:05 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker

                                        Dear Gordon,
                                        Sorry for the delay in answering.

                                        <<While you find midrash too broad and an unhelpful way to categorize
                                        the story writers imaginative process, I will simply have to
                                        disagree. One can see this process within the confines of the Hebrew
                                        Scriptures (look at the Flight from Egypt narrative as a prime
                                        example (the layers of early and later story telling that are in the
                                        received text we have and then the various ways the story is played
                                        over in the Psalms, the Prophets and then the extra Biblical
                                        writings). I find this sort very illuminative of the story telling
                                        traditions and the connections to the Gospels are blatantly obvious
                                        in many ways. Take, for example, the opening movements in the
                                        Synoptic stories of Jesus... Israel of old went to the waters, passed
                                        through the waters, spent 40 years in the wilderness, entered the
                                        land in triumph/ Jesus the Christ recapitulates this movement in
                                        Mark's Gospel... to the river, through the river, 40 (days not years)
                                        in the wilderness and then he enters the land victoriously casting
                                        out demons, not Canaanites. The play over plot framings, particular
                                        stories, particular theological and ethical and communal issues is
                                        directly related to this old, old pattern of story telling which we
                                        clearly can see within the bounds of TANAK and then see practiced,
                                        for example, from Mark to Matthew and Luke. So we will have to
                                        disagree here, and...>>
                                         
                                        Allow me to clarify. What I am proposing is not that the type of intertext which you have pointed to are not there. What I am suggesting is that these forms of intertext, are not a distinctly Jewish in nature, they are only of the sort that you have in any type of literature. My objection is not with the idea that we have intertext in the Gospels, my objection is that using "midrash" will appear to suggest that we are dealing in genre. Phrases like a "type of literature" or speaking of this or that as "being" midrash. On the other hand it is fair to speak of pesher as a genre and to point out the clear similarities in method used by authors of DSS and the evangelists, I think is entirely appropriate.

                                        <<here, as well. I also don't agree that Jesus, the historical fellow,
                                        is best understood under the rubric of "prophet." That is certainly
                                        one of the ways he came to be cast later on in the rich soup of
                                        titles and roles ascribed to him. No argument there. But on the
                                        basis of what I think we can know about the authentic speech of Jesus
                                        and the way the core of that authentic speech was preserved (both in
                                        words and other sorts of formulations) I think the best "position
                                        description for him (or title) is that of "a sage" or better "a
                                        Jewish wisdom word artist!" Why? Because I think what we can know
                                        of the fellow is found in the wisdom aphorisms and parables. Now,
                                        could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing against
                                        that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view>>
                                         
                                        Obviously this opens the field wide open for any number of discussions. First of all there are some underlying methodological issues that at the outset are not a given. Now following, Drapper, Horsley, and Kelber and others, I have started to question the soundness of the current trends in Form Criticism (e.g. see "Oral Performance , Popular Tradition, and Hidden Transcript in Q" ed. Horsley). Horsley's criticism of Theissen's broadly accepted theory of Wandering Radicals has also made me reconsider the accepted model of Christian origins (Horsley, "Sociology and the Jesus Movement"). Without endorsing the approach I could also point to Sanders who starts not with sayings, to find out who Jesus was (which almost other HJ scholars do), but start with an event, namely the condemnation of the temple. From there he adopts the view of Jesus as an oracle prophet (Sanders, "Jesus and Judaism"). While I do not agree with Sanders conclusion I think there is a
                                        methodological issue that he brings into focus with his approach.

                                        Now you point out that what we can know that Jesus was a word smith. I will go further and say we can be fairly certain that he was an oratory genius, but that does not contradict the preposition that he was a healer, or prophet. Furthermore the proposition that Jesus was the leader of a prophetic movement also has limited usefulness. Clearly the Jesus Movement had something that other prophetic movements, whether action prophets or oracle prophets, which enabled it to survive the death of its founder. Jesus' social program was a rallying point for group formation (e.g. Malina's 'Early Christian Groups: Using small group formation theory to explain Christian organization' in Esler "Modelling early Christianity: Social-scientific studies of the New Testament in its context").

                                        My appeal to prophetic movements is not that it can best explain the origins of Christianity, but to point out that how Jesus was understood was not merely a function of oral communication, but also action. Crossan has made this point in connection with his later clarification of his position of Jesus and cynics ("Birth of Christianity"). People understand what they perceive through what Berger and Luckmann term the social construction of reality. These heads of prophetic movements not only spoke, but also acted in such a way as to communicate their claim. My point therefore is that we should not assume that Jesus merely communicated and was communicated in speeches, but that part of the communication was carried out through doing. Furthermore since traditional stories of great figures of the past was part of the social construction of reality Jesus would be able to make the claim of being "like the prophets of old" through acts that would be interpreted
                                        precisely so.

                                        Now we agree that these stories suggest the perception by some followers of Jesus was a Elisha-Elijah figure. I would add that this view also appears in the saying tradition. My question, however, is what should one make of this early view of Jesus? I would say we should take it seriously, and explore whether or not such a view may have its origin with Jesus. My first question is where are we most likely to find such a view of Jesus, and my answer is that Galilee was probably a place where Elisha and Elijah enjoyed a great deal of popularity, since this was where they were active. The bulk of miracle stories also bear traces of sharing concerns of peasants/artisans. These stories would be of interest and be circulated by people of lower class who were the primary recipients of the benefit of these miracles in the narratives themselves.

                                        None of this is a denial of the presence of intertext in these written texts that we are left with, but the presence of intertext does not mean that the narrative itself is purely a construction of source texts that the evangelist composed.

                                        I think that it is time the scholarly community re-examined the soundness of how Wrede is used and the discrediting of the Markan narrative tradition. I think Theissen's "The Gospels in context" takes some initial steps in showing the locale of some of the Markan traditions. But I think on the whole the practice of Form Criticism needs to be reconsidered.

                                        Regards,

                                        Daniel Grolin


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                                      • Gordon Raynal
                                        Hi Daniel, Thanks for the note. ... Interesting way of putting this. You re worried about will appear to suggest we are dealing in genre.... Haggadah
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Aug 2, 2008
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                                          Hi Daniel,
                                          Thanks for the note.

                                          On Aug 2, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Daniel Grolin wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dear Gordon,
                                          > Sorry for the delay in answering.
                                          >
                                          > Allow me to clarify. What I am proposing is not that the type of
                                          > intertext which you have pointed to are not there. What I am
                                          > suggesting is that these forms of intertext, are not a distinctly
                                          > Jewish in nature, they are only of the sort that you have in any
                                          > type of literature. My objection is not with the idea that we have
                                          > intertext in the Gospels, my objection is that using "midrash" will
                                          > appear to suggest that we are dealing in genre. Phrases like a
                                          > "type of literature" or speaking of this or that as "being"
                                          > midrash. On the other hand it is fair to speak of pesher as a genre
                                          > and to point out the clear similarities in method used by authors
                                          > of DSS and the evangelists, I think is entirely appropriate.

                                          Interesting way of putting this. You're worried about "will appear
                                          to suggest we are dealing in genre...." Haggadah midrash is one kind
                                          of creative interpretation process and I'm using it in that sense.
                                          The genre is "gospel," of course. The key issue is what is the
                                          nature of these things called "gospels?" Are they essentially
                                          biographical in nature, rooted in "witnesses" reports that are shaped
                                          by theological and ethical teaching considerations? Or are they
                                          creative, imaginative theological/ ethical proclamation works
                                          essentially rooted in a whole matrix of different sources which
                                          include remembered words, memories of the times, theological
                                          characterizations, OT Scriptures retold in terms of said "character,"
                                          ethical musings, etc? You know which side of the track I'm on. And
                                          I will stick with midrash because I think the essential plot
                                          structures, many particular scenes and the use of direct textual
                                          references are well described by the term "midrash."
                                          >
                                          > <<here, as well. I also don't agree that Jesus, the historical fellow,
                                          > is best understood under the rubric of "prophet." That is certainly
                                          > one of the ways he came to be cast later on in the rich soup of
                                          > titles and roles ascribed to him. No argument there. But on the
                                          > basis of what I think we can know about the authentic speech of Jesus
                                          > and the way the core of that authentic speech was preserved (both in
                                          > words and other sorts of formulations) I think the best "position
                                          > description for him (or title) is that of "a sage" or better "a
                                          > Jewish wisdom word artist!" Why? Because I think what we can know
                                          > of the fellow is found in the wisdom aphorisms and parables. Now,
                                          > could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing against
                                          > that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view>>
                                          >
                                          > Obviously this opens the field wide open for any number of
                                          > discussions. First of all there are some underlying methodological
                                          > issues that at the outset are not a given. Now following, Drapper,
                                          > Horsley, and Kelber and others, I have started to question the
                                          > soundness of the current trends in Form Criticism (e.g. see "Oral
                                          > Performance , Popular Tradition, and Hidden Transcript in Q" ed.
                                          > Horsley). Horsley's criticism of Theissen's broadly accepted theory
                                          > of Wandering Radicals has also made me reconsider the accepted
                                          > model of Christian origins (Horsley, "Sociology and the Jesus
                                          > Movement"). Without endorsing the approach I could also point to
                                          > Sanders who starts not with sayings, to find out who Jesus was
                                          > (which almost other HJ scholars do), but start with an event,
                                          > namely the condemnation of the temple. From there he adopts the
                                          > view of Jesus as an oracle prophet (Sanders, "Jesus and Judaism").
                                          > While I do not agree with Sanders conclusion I think there is a
                                          > methodological issue that he brings into focus with his approach.

                                          Nicely put. And I appreciate your clarity on defining your
                                          position. In contrast to your position where I start is with an
                                          interface of "the mission" and the core dynamics/ espoused ethos of
                                          that mission. I think that is the brilliance of Crossan's original
                                          big Jesus book. Where I disagree with Crossan is the picturing of
                                          this as "a wandering radicals" movement. The movement and the
                                          instructions are, in my book, simply a functional part and necessity
                                          of going to houses. (I would call this "a reconciled home
                                          movement") Yes, the leaving and going for those who did imparted
                                          some of the message, but "the message" is nicely summed up across the
                                          resources in relationship to "Speak Peace to this house." (Paul's "a
                                          ministry of reconciliation," Ep. James "a harvest of righteousness
                                          is sown in peace for those who make peace," from G. Thomas 48 "If two
                                          make peace in a single house...," Mark's "Have salt in yourself and
                                          be at peace with one another." etc.) I think this is what is at key
                                          and core and I think the aphorism summaries that we see in such as
                                          the beatitudes, the common matrix of sayings between Q or if you
                                          prefer Matthew and Luke and the opening of the Didache show us the
                                          core ethos. And those words? They are wisdom words.
                                          >
                                          > Now you point out that what we can know that Jesus was a word
                                          > smith. I will go further and say we can be fairly certain that he
                                          > was an oratory genius, but that does not contradict the preposition
                                          > that he was a healer, or prophet. Furthermore the proposition that
                                          > Jesus was the leader of a prophetic movement also has limited
                                          > usefulness. Clearly the Jesus Movement had something that other
                                          > prophetic movements, whether action prophets or oracle prophets,
                                          > which enabled it to survive the death of its founder. Jesus' social
                                          > program was a rallying point for group formation (e.g. Malina's
                                          > 'Early Christian Groups: Using small group formation theory to
                                          > explain Christian organization' in Esler "Modelling early
                                          > Christianity: Social-scientific studies of the New Testament in its
                                          > context").

                                          I quite like your "oratory genius" words and I agree. After all, we
                                          are still pondering the the Sermon on the Mount, the Parable of the
                                          Prodigal, etc. 2 millennia later:)!

                                          And from the above paragraph, you will understand that I think that
                                          something "which enabled it to survive the death of its
                                          founder" (although I actually want to call that "" a group effort)
                                          is that it was effective in connecting a series of homes in a series
                                          of communities. Again, the focus wasn't on everyone "becoming a
                                          wandering radical!" If that were the case the whole thing would have
                                          died out:)! But a bunch of homes where people experienced and shared
                                          a sense of reconciliation, forgiveness, shalom, joy around the table,
                                          good stories, wise ethical musings, and dare I say... faith? What
                                          Jesus and friends did worked! It didn't start working after he went
                                          to Jerusalem or after he died or after he went to heaven, it worked
                                          in homes. Because it did, the Romans could crush the Temple, destroy
                                          the structures, etc., but short of complete annihilation of homes of
                                          these folks and those who lived in them, they could not have
                                          destroyed this working plan.
                                          >
                                          > My appeal to prophetic movements is not that it can best explain
                                          > the origins of Christianity, but to point out that how Jesus was
                                          > understood was not merely a function of oral communication, but
                                          > also action. Crossan has made this point in connection with his
                                          > later clarification of his position of Jesus and cynics ("Birth of
                                          > Christianity"). People understand what they perceive through what
                                          > Berger and Luckmann term the social construction of reality. These
                                          > heads of prophetic movements not only spoke, but also acted in such
                                          > a way as to communicate their claim. My point therefore is that we
                                          > should not assume that Jesus merely communicated and was
                                          > communicated in speeches, but that part of the communication was
                                          > carried out through doing. Furthermore since traditional stories of
                                          > great figures of the past was part of the social construction of
                                          > reality Jesus would be able to make the claim of being "like the
                                          > prophets of old" through acts that would be interpreted
                                          > precisely so.

                                          As I'm sure you're aware from my position, I just don't think we have
                                          diary like entries of "today Jesus went here and did that and said
                                          that." I simply don't think the Gospels give us access to that kind
                                          of historical/ biographical data. Here you're moving from
                                          generalities about prophetic movements and prophetic characters. To
                                          move with you I'd need some actual materials I took as reports. I
                                          don't see them and so I find this "well prophets behaved like this"
                                          and "we have some stories of Jesus acting in the role of behaving
                                          like this," so this must have historical basis. I don't buy that.
                                          Why?... because of course I think of the Elijah/ Elisha stories,
                                          themselves are lovely creations and that the Gospel authors quite
                                          knowlingly utilized those creations in their creativity. And why the
                                          press to do this? Well, after the destruction of the Temple and the
                                          crushing that Vespasian and Titus did, that had to be centrally
                                          addressed. And the go to stories to do that are, of course, the
                                          prophetic stories. What richer source for thinking about Jesus and
                                          the movement in the face of Rome than to turn to stories that dealt
                                          with the 12 Tribe nation falling apart and the wrath of the Assyrians
                                          and Babylonians to deal with this latest wrath? They were go to
                                          works to frame the message and mission in light of what happened.
                                          >
                                          > Now we agree that these stories suggest the perception by some
                                          > followers of Jesus was a Elisha-Elijah figure. I would add that
                                          > this view also appears in the saying tradition. My question,
                                          > however, is what should one make of this early view of Jesus? I
                                          > would say we should take it seriously, and explore whether or not
                                          > such a view may have its origin with Jesus. My first question is
                                          > where are we most likely to find such a view of Jesus, and my
                                          > answer is that Galilee was probably a place where Elisha and Elijah
                                          > enjoyed a great deal of popularity, since this was where they were
                                          > active. The bulk of miracle stories also bear traces of sharing
                                          > concerns of peasants/artisans. These stories would be of interest
                                          > and be circulated by people of lower class who were the primary
                                          > recipients of the benefit of these miracles in the narratives
                                          > themselves.

                                          To use my term, midrash or your term, interface... well, in the first
                                          place I do rather imagine it came up in family and group discussions
                                          in the homes while Jesus was around. And this being "a
                                          reconciliation movement" do understand that I think there were
                                          especially "prophetic minded" and "apocalyptically prophetic minded"
                                          in the mix. Sort of what pious Jews do... talk about ethics and God
                                          in terms of the received stories:)! But beyond that, surely the turn
                                          to Scriptures and racing all over them took off after Jesus was
                                          executed. Remind me of the order of the books most quoted and
                                          referred to? But Deuteronomy, Psalms and Isaiah are up there at the
                                          top. I'd expect nothing less. And there is is. Matthew, of course,
                                          is so particularly lovely with this because he just out and out says,
                                          "this or that" was said or done to fulfill Scriptures. Once we get
                                          to narrative Gospels (whether you accept the more traditional dating
                                          for Mark of around 70 or my dating of around 80) we're talking 40 or
                                          50 years out. And we are talking either "the real last days" or
                                          "after the real last days" of Jerusalem and the Temple establishment
                                          there. The need to deal with that either way was surely paramount
                                          and the Gospels let us see how that was done. That Jesus was cast a
                                          prophet of particularly the apocalyptic sort in light of those
                                          realities is none too surprising at all.
                                          >
                                          > None of this is a denial of the presence of intertext in these
                                          > written texts that we are left with, but the presence of intertext
                                          > does not mean that the narrative itself is purely a construction of
                                          > source texts that the evangelist composed.
                                          >
                                          > I think that it is time the scholarly community re-examined the
                                          > soundness of how Wrede is used and the discrediting of the Markan
                                          > narrative tradition. I think Theissen's "The Gospels in context"
                                          > takes some initial steps in showing the locale of some of the
                                          > Markan traditions. But I think on the whole the practice of Form
                                          > Criticism needs to be reconsidered.

                                          Daniel, to do what you're hoping for would require more historical
                                          data, not yet another reading paradigm. I wish we had that data. I
                                          truly do. I would be more than happy to find out Jesus was a healer,
                                          working prophetic signs, etc. But for that I'd need data. That
                                          said, I'd still stick with this approach I've outlined, because if
                                          the fellow Jesus did heal and perform signs and utter prophetic
                                          oracles, the house instructions, movement, ethos... and yes, those
                                          wisdom sayings are where I'd still find "the center" of these
                                          traditions. And back to your "oratory genius" point, whatever else
                                          Jesus said or did, I think the center of the man's genius is found in
                                          those aphorisms and parables.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,

                                          and to you and thanks for this note. a pleasure to chat.

                                          Gordon Raynal
                                          Inman, SC
                                          >
                                          > Daniel Grolin
                                          >
                                        • Bob Schacht
                                          At 08:37 AM 8/2/2008, Daniel Grolin wrote: Daniel, Let me take this opportunity to thank you, and a number of others, for their substantive contributions to
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Aug 2, 2008
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                                            At 08:37 AM 8/2/2008, Daniel Grolin wrote:



                                            Daniel,
                                            Let me take this opportunity to thank you, and a number of others, for
                                            their substantive contributions to the recent exchanges on XTalk, beginning
                                            with Jeffrey Gibson's initial question on July 29 that set the current set
                                            of threads in motion. I think such contributions as these are what keeps
                                            several hundred people subscribed to this list.

                                            A little bit more below.



                                            >----- Original Message ----
                                            >From: Gordon Raynal <scudi1@...>
                                            >To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                            >Sent: Friday, 1 August, 2008 1:33:05 AM
                                            >Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker
                                            >
                                            >Dear Gordon,
                                            >Sorry for the delay in answering.
                                            >
                                            ><<While you find midrash too broad and an unhelpful way to categorize
                                            >the story writers imaginative process, I will simply have to
                                            >disagree. One can see this process within the confines of the Hebrew
                                            >Scriptures (look at the Flight from Egypt narrative as a prime
                                            >example (the layers of early and later story telling that are in the
                                            >received text we have and then the various ways the story is played
                                            >over in the Psalms, the Prophets and then the extra Biblical
                                            >writings). I find this sort very illuminative of the story telling
                                            >traditions and the connections to the Gospels are blatantly obvious
                                            >in many ways. Take, for example, the opening movements in the
                                            >Synoptic stories of Jesus... Israel of old went to the waters, passed
                                            >through the waters, spent 40 years in the wilderness, entered the
                                            >land in triumph/ Jesus the Christ recapitulates this movement in
                                            >Mark's Gospel... to the river, through the river, 40 (days not years)
                                            >in the wilderness and then he enters the land victoriously casting
                                            >out demons, not Canaanites. The play over plot framings, particular
                                            >stories, particular theological and ethical and communal issues is
                                            >directly related to this old, old pattern of story telling which we
                                            >clearly can see within the bounds of TANAK and then see practiced,
                                            >for example, from Mark to Matthew and Luke. So we will have to
                                            >disagree here, and...>>
                                            >
                                            >Allow me to clarify. What I am proposing is not that the type of intertext
                                            >which you have pointed to are not there. What I am suggesting is that
                                            >these forms of intertext, are not a distinctly Jewish in nature, they are
                                            >only of the sort that you have in any type of literature. My objection is
                                            >not with the idea that we have intertext in the Gospels, my objection is
                                            >that using "midrash" will appear to suggest that we are dealing in genre.
                                            >Phrases like a "type of literature" or speaking of this or that as "being"
                                            >midrash. On the other hand it is fair to speak of pesher as a genre and to
                                            >point out the clear similarities in method used by authors of DSS and the
                                            >evangelists, I think is entirely appropriate.
                                            >
                                            ><<here, as well. I also don't agree that Jesus, the historical fellow,
                                            >is best understood under the rubric of "prophet." That is certainly
                                            >one of the ways he came to be cast later on in the rich soup of
                                            >titles and roles ascribed to him. No argument there. But on the
                                            >basis of what I think we can know about the authentic speech of Jesus
                                            >and the way the core of that authentic speech was preserved (both in
                                            >words and other sorts of formulations) I think the best "position
                                            >description for him (or title) is that of "a sage" or better "a
                                            >Jewish wisdom word artist!" Why? Because I think what we can know
                                            >of the fellow is found in the wisdom aphorisms and parables. Now,
                                            >could he have also been a healer? Of course. I have nothing against
                                            >that idea, but I simply see no evidence for that view>>
                                            >
                                            >Obviously this opens the field wide open for any number of discussions.
                                            >First of all there are some underlying methodological issues that at the
                                            >outset are not a given. Now following, Drapper, Horsley, and Kelber and
                                            >others, I have started to question the soundness of the current trends in
                                            >Form Criticism (e.g. see "Oral Performance , Popular Tradition, and Hidden
                                            >Transcript in Q" ed. Horsley). Horsley's criticism of Theissen's broadly
                                            >accepted theory of Wandering Radicals has also made me reconsider the
                                            >accepted model of Christian origins (Horsley, "Sociology and the Jesus
                                            >Movement"). Without endorsing the approach I could also point to Sanders
                                            >who starts not with sayings, to find out who Jesus was (which almost other
                                            >HJ scholars do), but start with an event, namely the condemnation of the
                                            >temple. From there he adopts the view of Jesus as an oracle prophet
                                            >(Sanders, "Jesus and Judaism"). While I do not agree with Sanders
                                            >conclusion I think there is a methodological issue that he brings into
                                            >focus with his approach.

                                            I for one would welcome more discussion on these methodological issues.
                                            For example, methodologically speaking, if we follow your characterization
                                            of Sanders' method, how does one rightly choose an event *as the place to
                                            start,* and how does one frame such an event in a neutral way that does not
                                            presuppose where the ensuing discussion will wind up?

                                            I suppose one could begin with an event established outside of the canon,
                                            and hence putatively independent-- e.g. something from Josephus
                                            (acknowledging that there are problems with the independence of Josephus,
                                            as well).


                                            >Now you point out that what we can know that Jesus was a word smith. I
                                            >will go further and say we can be fairly certain that he was an oratory
                                            >genius, but that does not contradict the preposition that he was a healer,
                                            >or prophet. Furthermore the proposition that Jesus was the leader of a
                                            >prophetic movement also has limited usefulness. Clearly the Jesus Movement
                                            >had something that other prophetic movements, whether action prophets or
                                            >oracle prophets, which enabled it to survive the death of its founder.
                                            >Jesus' social program was a rallying point for group formation (e.g.
                                            >Malina's 'Early Christian Groups: Using small group formation theory to
                                            >explain Christian organization' in Esler "Modelling early Christianity:
                                            >Social-scientific studies of the New Testament in its context").
                                            >
                                            >My appeal to prophetic movements is not that it can best explain the
                                            >origins of Christianity, but to point out that how Jesus was understood
                                            >was not merely a function of oral communication, but also action. Crossan
                                            >has made this point in connection with his later clarification of his
                                            >position of Jesus and cynics ("Birth of Christianity"). People understand
                                            >what they perceive through what Berger and Luckmann term the social
                                            >construction of reality. These heads of prophetic movements not only
                                            >spoke, but also acted in such a way as to communicate their claim. My
                                            >point therefore is that we should not assume that Jesus merely
                                            >communicated and was communicated in speeches, but that part of the
                                            >communication was carried out through doing. Furthermore since traditional
                                            >stories of great figures of the past was part of the social construction
                                            >of reality Jesus would be able to make the claim of being "like the
                                            >prophets of old" through acts that would be interpreted
                                            > precisely so.
                                            >
                                            >Now we agree that these stories suggest the perception by some followers
                                            >of Jesus was a Elisha-Elijah figure. I would add that this view also
                                            >appears in the saying tradition. My question, however, is what should one
                                            >make of this early view of Jesus? I would say we should take it seriously,
                                            >and explore whether or not such a view may have its origin with Jesus. My
                                            >first question is where are we most likely to find such a view of Jesus,
                                            >and my answer is that Galilee was probably a place where Elisha and Elijah
                                            >enjoyed a great deal of popularity, since this was where they were active.
                                            >The bulk of miracle stories also bear traces of sharing concerns of
                                            >peasants/artisans. These stories would be of interest and be circulated by
                                            >people of lower class who were the primary recipients of the benefit of
                                            >these miracles in the narratives themselves.
                                            >
                                            >None of this is a denial of the presence of intertext in these written
                                            >texts that we are left with, but the presence of intertext does not mean
                                            >that the narrative itself is purely a construction of source texts that
                                            >the evangelist composed.
                                            >
                                            >I think that it is time the scholarly community re-examined the soundness
                                            >of how Wrede is used and the discrediting of the Markan narrative
                                            >tradition. I think Theissen's "The Gospels in context" takes some initial
                                            >steps in showing the locale of some of the Markan traditions. But I think
                                            >on the whole the practice of Form Criticism needs to be reconsidered.

                                            This too is a point worth debating. I wonder if we can draw Ted Weeden out
                                            of lurkdom?

                                            Bob Schacht
                                            University of Hawaii



                                            >Regards,
                                            >
                                            >Daniel Grolin
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Kenneth Litwak
                                            ... While you find midrash too broad and an unhelpful way to categorize the story writers imaginative process, I will simply have to disagree.Ken:  Gordon, so
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Aug 2, 2008
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                                              --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Gordon Raynal <scudi1@...> wrote:
                                              > Dear Tony & Gordon,

                                              >

                                              > I would like to object to the proposition that the literary form of

                                              > the stories are "often midrashic". Not because it isn't true, but

                                              > because it isn't helpful. The manner in which the term is used is

                                              > simply too broad.

                                              >

                                              > Strack and Stemberger state ("Introduction to the Talmud and

                                              > Midrash", p. 235) that Midrash cannot really be defined, only

                                              > described (which is at the heart of the problem), and they do so as

                                              > follows: "a literature, oral or written, which stands in direct

                                              > relationship to a fixed canonical text ..." This furthermore

                                              > includes not only the text as they stand, but also the events they

                                              > refer to. Of course, taking the terms so broadly you might call the

                                              > Gospels midrash, but that is hardly helpful. Almost any surviving

                                              > Jewish text (and a great many Christian) can be termed midrash. In

                                              > other words Midrash is just "intertext". I object to the use of

                                              > Midrash, because it seems to imply that there is Jewish/Israelite

                                              > literature that does what the Gospels supposedly did by adopting

                                              > stories from the Elijah-Elisha cycle (and call it "midrash"). As

                                              > far as I have been able to learn that is not the case. The Gospels

                                              > do have something that looks like a form of Midrash,

                                              > namely Pesher.


                                              While you find midrash too broad and an unhelpful way to categorize

                                              the story writers imaginative process, I will simply have to

                                              disagree.Ken: 
                                              Gordon, so you are basically saying, "I don't care that I'm misusing a technical term ina way that no one else woudl support and that therefore is of no value in communication.  No matter who objects to it, I'm going to do it anyway."  Is that a fair summary?  Richard Hays in _Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul_ showed many years ago the problems of attaching the term "midrash" even to Paul's explicit interpretations of Scripture.  FIrst, in that case, and in yours, it is grossly anachronistic.  "MIdrash" as an established technique is from the Rabbinica period, after about 200 A.D., so far as we know.  Second, "midrash" is a form of interpretation, a way of explaining Scripture.  There is no evidence that it equals "taking elements fomr a biblcial narrative and inventing a completely new narrative about something else out of whole cloth."  So when you use midrash to describe anything in the gospels, it is simply invalid from a technical
                                              point of view.  Why do you insist on an invalid use of the word "midrash"?

                                                 On top of that, you have not actually pointed to any literature contemporary with or prior to the gospels that share the same genre(s) of bios or historiography that evince what you are suggesting.  You may not accept those genre identifications, but for example, I have not seen anyone provide any evidence at all that meaningfully challenges Richard Burrdige's demonstration from actual data (not merely assertions) that Mark is an example of Greco-Roman Bios.

                                                   Third, as to the specifics of the Elijah-Elisha narratives having parallels in the gospels. Thomas Brodie has demonstrated this well in many places.  However, an important point beyond or next to his needs to be made.

                                                 As many, such as Baumgarten or White have shown (White especially), no one ever recounts history-as-it-happened.  That's a 19th centuiry myth invented by von Ranke and others of a Positivist persuasion. Rather, we only ever write or read history-as-it-is-narrated.  When you connect this fact that hsitory is always and only what is narrated in precisely the way an author wishes to present it, and combine that with the fact Hellensitic historiographers sought eagerly to both imitate those who came before them and to show how those in their narratives were part of peoples in the past (see works by Marincola, as well as The Past is a Foreign Country), it is not at surprising that Luke, as one example, would seek to show how Jesus of Nazareth was like Elijah and Elisha in the past. 

                                                 However, it is entirely possible, and indeed likely, from a generic point of view (that is, the genre of Luke as Hellenisitic historiography), that Luke is only making those connections and narrating them because that is how it happened so far as he understood, as opposed to narrating other things he might have known or oculd have chosen to say. 

                                                 You seem to be making the facile assumption, indeed, one might say presupposing as an a priori, that because one or more elements in the Scriptures of Israel are echoed in some manner in a gospel narrative that htereore it os obvious that the gospel account is an invention and the story recounts something that never happened.  You have not offered anything to support that, however, except your repreated "I disagree."  With all due respect, such an argument would get a very poor grade from me if a student tried it. It carries no weight with me certainly.

                                              Ken Litwak

                                               

                                              _._,___


















                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Gordon Raynal
                                              Hi Ken, ... You are correct, of course that midrash is a technical term that is related to what you speak of, but it is also a term that I have heard used many
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                                Hi Ken,
                                                On Aug 3, 2008, at 1:48 AM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:

                                                >
                                                > .Ken:
                                                > Gordon, so you are basically saying, "I don't care that I'm
                                                > misusing a technical term ina way that no one else woudl support
                                                > and that therefore is of no value in communication. No matter who
                                                > objects to it, I'm going to do it anyway." Is that a fair
                                                > summary? Richard Hays in _Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of
                                                > Paul_ showed many years ago the problems of attaching the term
                                                > "midrash" even to Paul's explicit interpretations of Scripture.
                                                > FIrst, in that case, and in yours, it is grossly anachronistic.
                                                > "MIdrash" as an established technique is from the Rabbinica period,
                                                > after about 200 A.D., so far as we know. Second, "midrash" is a
                                                > form of interpretation, a way of explaining Scripture. There is no
                                                > evidence that it equals "taking elements fomr a biblcial narrative
                                                > and inventing a completely new narrative about something else out
                                                > of whole cloth." So when you use midrash to describe anything in
                                                > the gospels, it is simply invalid from a technical
                                                > point of view. Why do you insist on an invalid use of the word
                                                > "midrash"?

                                                You are correct, of course that midrash is a technical term that is
                                                related to what you speak of, but it is also a term that I have heard
                                                used many times to talk about the particular creative story telling
                                                process we find in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures themselves.
                                                Where did I hear that? Well, one place was at the local temple and
                                                in several lovely discussions of the creativity we find within Torah,
                                                itself, not to mention the rest of the Tanak. The rabbi and the 2
                                                lay teachers (both college professor PhD's) freely used that term in
                                                regard to this particular kind of Hebraic/ Jewish story telling
                                                creativity. I think that is most appropriate and it is that that
                                                I've been talking about.
                                                >
                                                > On top of that, you have not actually pointed to any literature
                                                > contemporary with or prior to the gospels that share the same genre
                                                > (s) of bios or historiography that evince what you are suggesting.
                                                > You may not accept those genre identifications, but for example, I
                                                > have not seen anyone provide any evidence at all that meaningfully
                                                > challenges Richard Burrdige's demonstration from actual data (not
                                                > merely assertions) that Mark is an example of Greco-Roman Bios.

                                                Open the OT... there are a whole lot of stories to where you'll find
                                                exactly what I'm talking about. For a key one and I don't have time
                                                just now to do a verse by verse review of this and so will only give
                                                an off the top of the head response (and BTW... this is one of the
                                                things that aforementioned rabbi and teachers talked about), but the
                                                story of the escape from Egypt within those texts has a story of
                                                escaping slaves through the marsh land under YHWH Elohim's guidance,
                                                the Song of Miriam which adds the element of "horse and rider thrown
                                                into the sea," the ramping of this story to the whole text
                                                understanding of Moses with his Staff from God parting the waters,
                                                the Israelites safely marching through and then the Egyptians getting
                                                crushed. And then (again pardon my forgetting the dating) but the
                                                later rabbinic story that Moses didn't make for just one column of
                                                water to walk through, but rather God made for 12 columns, one for
                                                each tribe that is extra Torah text. That's a fine example of
                                                developmental creativity that is both behind and beyond the Exodus
                                                story. Fine by me, if you prefer using a different term for this
                                                kind of theological story creativity, but again the local rabbi was
                                                quite happy to use it.
                                                >
                                                > Third, as to the specifics of the Elijah-Elisha narratives
                                                > having parallels in the gospels. Thomas Brodie has demonstrated
                                                > this well in many places. However, an important point beyond or
                                                > next to his needs to be made.
                                                >
                                                > As many, such as Baumgarten or White have shown (White
                                                > especially), no one ever recounts history-as-it-happened. That's a
                                                > 19th centuiry myth invented by von Ranke and others of a Positivist
                                                > persuasion. Rather, we only ever write or read history-as-it-is-
                                                > narrated. When you connect this fact that hsitory is always and
                                                > only what is narrated in precisely the way an author wishes to
                                                > present it, and combine that with the fact Hellensitic
                                                > historiographers sought eagerly to both imitate those who came
                                                > before them and to show how those in their narratives were part of
                                                > peoples in the past (see works by Marincola, as well as The Past is
                                                > a Foreign Country), it is not at surprising that Luke, as one
                                                > example, would seek to show how Jesus of Nazareth was like Elijah
                                                > and Elisha in the past.

                                                All of this simply gets to our fundamental disagreement about what a
                                                narrative gospel is. You are obviously convinced by the authors you
                                                site that we're dealing with biography. Citing all these who
                                                convince you of this, does not convince me. I'm fine with
                                                disagreeing about this.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > However, it is entirely possible, and indeed likely, from a
                                                > generic point of view (that is, the genre of Luke as Hellenisitic
                                                > historiography), that Luke is only making those connections and
                                                > narrating them because that is how it happened so far as he
                                                > understood, as opposed to narrating other things he might have
                                                > known or oculd have chosen to say.
                                                >
                                                > You seem to be making the facile assumption, indeed, one might
                                                > say presupposing as an a priori, that because one or more elements
                                                > in the Scriptures of Israel are echoed in some manner in a gospel
                                                > narrative that htereore it os obvious that the gospel account is an
                                                > invention and the story recounts something that never happened.
                                                > You have not offered anything to support that, however, except your
                                                > repreated "I disagree." With all due respect, such an argument
                                                > would get a very poor grade from me if a student tried it. It
                                                > carries no weight with me certainly.

                                                For you this is "facile." So be it. Again, I'd just say open the OT
                                                and there are bucket loads of stories where one can discover this
                                                kind of creative theological story telling.

                                                Gordon Raynal
                                                Inman, SC
                                                >
                                                > Ken Litwak
                                                >
                                              • Daniel Grolin
                                                Dear Ken, I agree with what you are saying here, even if I would not have put it so bluntly. I to think that Burridge s determination of the genre of the
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                                  Dear Ken,

                                                  I agree with what you are saying here, even if I would not have put it so bluntly. I to think that Burridge's determination of the genre of the gospels as bioi as a major problem for those positing it as a largely imaginative work. In addition I would point to Byrskog's book "Story as history and history as story". Another book of possible relevance is Bauckham's "Jesus and the eyewitnesses", I have yet to read it and determine for myself if I find it viable.

                                                  Regards,
                                                  Daniel


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                                                • Kenneth Litwak
                                                  Hi Gordon,   I m not gong to intersperse my comments because that would not be helpful, even though I think that means I m breaking some protocol.   Instead
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Aug 9, 2008
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                                                    Hi Gordon,

                                                      I"m not gong to intersperse my comments because that would not be helpful, even though I think that means I'm breaking some protocol.   Instead I want to focus on what I see as a significant problem in your presentation. 

                                                       It is, I believe, axiomatic that a writer must craft a work in a genre that an audience can recognize and knows how to interpret.  I'm hardly the first person to say this, so I don't need to defend it other than to say that if a "gospel" were a special  genre, or sui generis, no one in the first century or afterwards even, would have had any idea what it was or how to read it or interpret it. 

                                                      This implies that the gospels were written according to established principles of well-recognized genres.  Otherwise, their audiences, from Rome to Ephesus, would have had  no idea what they were or how to read them.  So, with reference to your view,

                                                    1.  Name for me the principles or elements of midrash that a first-century audience, either Jewish, Gentile, or mixed, would have clearly recognized.  I can do that for Bios or historiography but midrash I can't. 

                                                    2.,  Can you tell me the Second Temple models (excluding the Scriptures of Israel) that would have been well-known as examples of midrash and that look like the gospels?

                                                    3.  What are the examples of midrash form prior to the first-century A.D., known across the empire, that feature a Jewish sage who looks like a cynic and nothing else?

                                                    4.  You point to the Scriptures of Israel as themselves being examples of midrash.  Since you cannot point to the story that lies behind the Exodus story and the like so that we can see clearly exactly how those original stories were modified and turned into fictional accounts that bear no relation to anything that ever happened, much as you seem to think the gospels are pure fantasy or close enough that they are useless for learning anything about any real event. That is what I gather you have been saying in your various posts.   Why is it that Jesus' contemporaries don't seem to have recognized the Exodus story as a fictional account based on some other story?  What a modern rabbi might have to say is not relevant for how the text was understood by first-century Jews or Gentiles.  Indeed, it seems rather odd that Josephus would rely upon what you consider total fiction in his efforts to defend the Jews as a noble and ancient race.

                                                    Ken Litwak

                                                    --- On Sun, 8/3/08, Gordon Raynal <scudi1@...> wrote:
                                                    From: Gordon Raynal <scudi1@...>
                                                    Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle worker
                                                    To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Cc: "Michael Ensley" <mensley@...>
                                                    Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 10:47 AM











                                                    Hi Ken,

                                                    On Aug 3, 2008, at 1:48 AM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:



                                                    >

                                                    > .Ken:

                                                    > Gordon, so you are basically saying, "I don't care that I'm

                                                    > misusing a technical term ina way that no one else woudl support

                                                    > and that therefore is of no value in communication. No matter who

                                                    > objects to it, I'm going to do it anyway." Is that a fair

                                                    > summary? Richard Hays in _Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of

                                                    > Paul_ showed many years ago the problems of attaching the term

                                                    > "midrash" even to Paul's explicit interpretations of Scripture.

                                                    > FIrst, in that case, and in yours, it is grossly anachronistic.

                                                    > "MIdrash" as an established technique is from the Rabbinica period,

                                                    > after about 200 A.D., so far as we know. Second, "midrash" is a

                                                    > form of interpretation, a way of explaining Scripture. There is no

                                                    > evidence that it equals "taking elements fomr a biblcial narrative

                                                    > and inventing a completely new narrative about something else out

                                                    > of whole cloth." So when you use midrash to describe anything in

                                                    > the gospels, it is simply invalid from a technical

                                                    > point of view. Why do you insist on an invalid use of the word

                                                    > "midrash"?



                                                    You are correct, of course that midrash is a technical term that is

                                                    related to what you speak of, but it is also a term that I have heard

                                                    used many times to talk about the particular creative story telling

                                                    process we find in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures themselves.

                                                    Where did I hear that? Well, one place was at the local temple and

                                                    in several lovely discussions of the creativity we find within Torah,

                                                    itself, not to mention the rest of the Tanak. The rabbi and the 2

                                                    lay teachers (both college professor PhD's) freely used that term in

                                                    regard to this particular kind of Hebraic/ Jewish story telling

                                                    creativity. I think that is most appropriate and it is that that

                                                    I've been talking about.

                                                    >

                                                    > On top of that, you have not actually pointed to any literature

                                                    > contemporary with or prior to the gospels that share the same genre

                                                    > (s) of bios or historiography that evince what you are suggesting.

                                                    > You may not accept those genre identifications, but for example, I

                                                    > have not seen anyone provide any evidence at all that meaningfully

                                                    > challenges Richard Burrdige's demonstration from actual data (not

                                                    > merely assertions) that Mark is an example of Greco-Roman Bios.



                                                    Open the OT... there are a whole lot of stories to where you'll find

                                                    exactly what I'm talking about. For a key one and I don't have time

                                                    just now to do a verse by verse review of this and so will only give

                                                    an off the top of the head response (and BTW... this is one of the

                                                    things that aforementioned rabbi and teachers talked about), but the

                                                    story of the escape from Egypt within those texts has a story of

                                                    escaping slaves through the marsh land under YHWH Elohim's guidance,

                                                    the Song of Miriam which adds the element of "horse and rider thrown

                                                    into the sea," the ramping of this story to the whole text

                                                    understanding of Moses with his Staff from God parting the waters,

                                                    the Israelites safely marching through and then the Egyptians getting

                                                    crushed. And then (again pardon my forgetting the dating) but the

                                                    later rabbinic story that Moses didn't make for just one column of

                                                    water to walk through, but rather God made for 12 columns, one for

                                                    each tribe that is extra Torah text. That's a fine example of

                                                    developmental creativity that is both behind and beyond the Exodus

                                                    story. Fine by me, if you prefer using a different term for this

                                                    kind of theological story creativity, but again the local rabbi was

                                                    quite happy to use it.

                                                    >

                                                    > Third, as to the specifics of the Elijah-Elisha narratives

                                                    > having parallels in the gospels. Thomas Brodie has demonstrated

                                                    > this well in many places. However, an important point beyond or

                                                    > next to his needs to be made.

                                                    >

                                                    > As many, such as Baumgarten or White have shown (White

                                                    > especially), no one ever recounts history-as-it- happened. That's a

                                                    > 19th centuiry myth invented by von Ranke and others of a Positivist

                                                    > persuasion. Rather, we only ever write or read history-as-it- is-

                                                    > narrated. When you connect this fact that hsitory is always and

                                                    > only what is narrated in precisely the way an author wishes to

                                                    > present it, and combine that with the fact Hellensitic

                                                    > historiographers sought eagerly to both imitate those who came

                                                    > before them and to show how those in their narratives were part of

                                                    > peoples in the past (see works by Marincola, as well as The Past is

                                                    > a Foreign Country), it is not at surprising that Luke, as one

                                                    > example, would seek to show how Jesus of Nazareth was like Elijah

                                                    > and Elisha in the past.



                                                    All of this simply gets to our fundamental disagreement about what a

                                                    narrative gospel is. You are obviously convinced by the authors you

                                                    site that we're dealing with biography. Citing all these who

                                                    convince you of this, does not convince me. I'm fine with

                                                    disagreeing about this.

                                                    >

                                                    >

                                                    > However, it is entirely possible, and indeed likely, from a

                                                    > generic point of view (that is, the genre of Luke as Hellenisitic

                                                    > historiography) , that Luke is only making those connections and

                                                    > narrating them because that is how it happened so far as he

                                                    > understood, as opposed to narrating other things he might have

                                                    > known or oculd have chosen to say.

                                                    >

                                                    > You seem to be making the facile assumption, indeed, one might

                                                    > say presupposing as an a priori, that because one or more elements

                                                    > in the Scriptures of Israel are echoed in some manner in a gospel

                                                    > narrative that htereore it os obvious that the gospel account is an

                                                    > invention and the story recounts something that never happened.

                                                    > You have not offered anything to support that, however, except your

                                                    > repreated "I disagree." With all due respect, such an argument

                                                    > would get a very poor grade from me if a student tried it. It

                                                    > carries no weight with me certainly.



                                                    For you this is "facile." So be it. Again, I'd just say open the OT

                                                    and there are bucket loads of stories where one can discover this

                                                    kind of creative theological story telling.



                                                    Gordon Raynal

                                                    Inman, SC

                                                    >

                                                    > Ken Litwak

                                                    >



























                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Gordon Raynal
                                                    Hi Ken, ... Obviously humans tell stories and if the markers of the recognizable conditions of life on planet Earth are there, then it will be recognizable.
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Aug 9, 2008
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                                                      Hi Ken,

                                                      On Aug 9, 2008, at 3:27 AM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:

                                                      > Hi Gordon,
                                                      >
                                                      > I"m not gong to intersperse my comments because that would not be
                                                      > helpful, even though I think that means I'm breaking some
                                                      > protocol. Instead I want to focus on what I see as a significant
                                                      > problem in your presentation.
                                                      >
                                                      > It is, I believe, axiomatic that a writer must craft a work in a
                                                      > genre that an audience can recognize and knows how to interpret.
                                                      > I'm hardly the first person to say this, so I don't need to defend
                                                      > it other than to say that if a "gospel" were a special genre, or
                                                      > sui generis, no one in the first century or afterwards even, would
                                                      > have had any idea what it was or how to read it or interpret it.

                                                      Obviously humans tell stories and if the markers of the recognizable
                                                      conditions of life on planet Earth are there, then it will be
                                                      "recognizable." Narrative realism is a good term to describe the
                                                      craft of all such stories. As to how to interpret this particular
                                                      kind of story, interwoven into the very fabric of the story are the
                                                      authorial chosen keys. In Mark we are presented with the
                                                      foundational key from the outset... this is "a good news" of Jesus
                                                      Christ the Son of God. And, if you'll allow me to jump to John's
                                                      Gospel for a clear statement of the intent of all the gospels: "But
                                                      these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the
                                                      Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life
                                                      in his name." (John 20:31 NRSV)
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > This implies that the gospels were written according to
                                                      > established principles of well-recognized genres. Otherwise, their
                                                      > audiences, from Rome to Ephesus, would have had no idea what they
                                                      > were or how to read them. So, with reference to your view,
                                                      >
                                                      > 1. Name for me the principles or elements of midrash that a first-
                                                      > century audience, either Jewish, Gentile, or mixed, would have
                                                      > clearly recognized. I can do that for Bios or historiography but
                                                      > midrash I can't.

                                                      If one accepts that the point of this kind of writing is theological
                                                      affirmation (sort of clear that Jesus is proclaimed from the start of
                                                      Mark as "Christ the Son of God"), ethical espousal and deliberation,
                                                      communal ethos affirmation and development centered around
                                                      characterization (identity affirmation of the founder), then the keys
                                                      to laying out the Scripture search to make for this characterization
                                                      are plain enough. Matthew takes Mark and makes it ever so explicit
                                                      from the beginning with the key choice of "son of Abraham" and "son
                                                      of David" as two of the prime characterization markers. As the
                                                      theology and ethics take off from the received heritage then one sees
                                                      the various kinds of moves utilized: direct quotation of Scriptures,
                                                      comparison with earlier characterizations, recapitulation of specific
                                                      events or series of events, actions and the words that go with them,
                                                      but also thematic or simply metaphorical association. These are core
                                                      elements that the gospel authors used quite creatively! As the
                                                      received weave of the Hebrew narrative is so rich they had a lot to
                                                      work with.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > 2., Can you tell me the Second Temple models (excluding the
                                                      > Scriptures of Israel) that would have been well-known as examples
                                                      > of midrash and that look like the gospels?

                                                      As I'm asking you (and all) to think in terms of the art of story
                                                      telling, then there are analogs in every culture found in the growth
                                                      of culturally specific story traditions. Just read works in Greek
                                                      mythology to see the wondrous imagination of those mythmakers. The
                                                      Israelite writers were not doing something odd or unrecognizable.
                                                      What differentiates the story telling process has to do with the
                                                      espoused theology and ethics. Midrash, as a term, is useful in
                                                      pointing to how the interweave of story telling built on top of
                                                      itself within the framework of espousing said theology, ethics and
                                                      social praxis.
                                                      >
                                                      > 3. What are the examples of midrash form prior to the first-
                                                      > century A.D., known across the empire, that feature a Jewish sage
                                                      > who looks like a cynic and nothing else?

                                                      Now this is an interesting sentence and I'm not entirely certain all
                                                      you are trying to imply with it. You'll have to open that up for
                                                      me. But, in the first place, I don't want to start with (capital C)
                                                      cynics. I want you to look backwards into the Israelite heritage
                                                      itself, first. And what do we find there? Wisdom works? Yes! Job,
                                                      Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, for those specifically
                                                      identified as wisdom works... and the first is a story book wisdom
                                                      book! Before proceeding onward from TANAK we also find noted wisdom
                                                      discourse across TANAK. And then proceeding onward we find that
                                                      these Hebrew folk had a very living wisdom heritage, as is seen in
                                                      such as ben Sira and the Wisdom of Solomon. Inside the Scriptures
                                                      and continuing wisdom discourse and wisdom story creativity was quite
                                                      alive among the Hebrew folk. And I would like to suggest to you that
                                                      such as the books of Ruth and Jonah are in fact extended parables and
                                                      that they provide nice wisdom crafted works we find in the OT
                                                      Scriptures themselves. But then you have already presented an
                                                      example, not native to Israel, and that is the Cynic philosophical
                                                      heritage. Well worth everyone's time to investigate some of the
                                                      stories and words about such as Diogenes of Sinope for comparison to
                                                      how such kinds of words work. Burton Mack's book on Q has a very
                                                      good discussion of the parallels and what was a bit different about
                                                      the Hebrew folk and Jesus and friends, in particular.

                                                      And I just have to say this... real wisdom communicates across all
                                                      cultures because "sense" makes sense:)!
                                                      >
                                                      > 4. You point to the Scriptures of Israel as themselves being
                                                      > examples of midrash. Since you cannot point to the story that lies
                                                      > behind the Exodus story and the like so that we can see clearly
                                                      > exactly how those original stories were modified and turned into
                                                      > fictional accounts that bear no relation to anything that ever
                                                      > happened, much as you seem to think the gospels are pure fantasy or
                                                      > close enough that they are useless for learning anything about any
                                                      > real event. That is what I gather you have been saying in your
                                                      > various posts. Why is it that Jesus' contemporaries don't seem to
                                                      > have recognized the Exodus story as a fictional account based on
                                                      > some other story? What a modern rabbi might have to say is not
                                                      > relevant for how the text was understood by first-century Jews or
                                                      > Gentiles. Indeed, it seems rather odd that Josephus would rely
                                                      > upon what you consider total fiction in his efforts to defend the
                                                      > Jews as a noble and ancient race.

                                                      My response to this paragraph: why do you assume I think the gospels
                                                      are well described by the term, "fantasy?" And why do you assume
                                                      that ancient folk did not understand the craft of story telling?

                                                      And I'll end on this related note. Nearly 30 years ago in my first
                                                      seminary course on theology, one of the very first discussions in the
                                                      class was on the nature of theological language. My very traditional
                                                      Reformed theology prof made it very clear that theological language
                                                      is the language of metaphor. Powerful, image rich story telling of
                                                      many kinds of genres is rooted in the language of metaphor, of
                                                      course, and hence story telling is a prime form of that theological
                                                      and ethical communication. Jesus understood that! He told
                                                      parables. I don't find it the least bit odd that his followers did
                                                      precisely the same sort of thing in his honor.

                                                      Gordon Raynal
                                                      Inman, SC
                                                      >
                                                      > Ken Litwak
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • Ken Olson
                                                      Hi Ken, I ve had a lot of difficulty following many of the arguments about the gospels that are based on genre, so I m hoping you can clarify a few points for
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Aug 9, 2008
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                                                        Hi Ken,

                                                        I've had a lot of difficulty following many of the arguments about the gospels that are based on genre, so I'm hoping you can clarify a few points for me.

                                                        First, don't we have a large number of ancient works that don't fit easily into any single established genre (i.e., a "pure" genre), such as Apuleius' Memorphosis or Philostratus' Life of Apollonius, for example? And don't a number of works borrow elements from other genres, such as Thucydides' use of diagnosis in his history or, in the gospels, Mark's use of apocalyptic in a bios (if the gospels are indeed bioi)? It seems to me that genre conventions were never rigidly maintained, or at least they were often crossed. Finally, what genre would some of the apocryphal works like the Gospel of Peter or the Infancy Gospel of Thomas belong to? Were their authors' literary geniuses doing something that had never been done before, or were they following some known generic conventions?

                                                        Best,

                                                        Ken

                                                        Ken Olson, PhD Student, Duke University



                                                        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.comFrom: javajedi2@...: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 00:27:19 -0700Subject: [XTalk] Gospel Genre -- to Gordon




                                                        Hi Gordon, I"m not gong to intersperse my comments because that would not be helpful, even though I think that means I'm breaking some protocol. Instead I want to focus on what I see as a significant problem in your presentation. It is, I believe, axiomatic that a writer must craft a work in a genre that an audience can recognize and knows how to interpret. I'm hardly the first person to say this, so I don't need to defend it other than to say that if a "gospel" were a special genre, or sui generis, no one in the first century or afterwards even, would have had any idea what it was or how to read it or interpret it. This implies that the gospels were written according to established principles of well-recognized genres. Otherwise, their audiences, from Rome to Ephesus, would have had no idea what they were or how to read them. So, with reference to your view,1. Name for me the principles or elements of midrash that a first-century audience, either Jewish, Gentile, or mixed, would have clearly recognized. I can do that for Bios or historiography but midrash I can't. 2., Can you tell me the Second Temple models (excluding the Scriptures of Israel) that would have been well-known as examples of midrash and that look like the gospels?3. What are the examples of midrash form prior to the first-century A.D., known across the empire, that feature a Jewish sage who looks like a cynic and nothing else?4. You point to the Scriptures of Israel as themselves being examples of midrash. Since you cannot point to the story that lies behind the Exodus story and the like so that we can see clearly exactly how those original stories were modified and turned into fictional accounts that bear no relation to anything that ever happened, much as you seem to think the gospels are pure fantasy or close enough that they are useless for learning anything about any real event. That is what I gather you have been saying in your various posts. Why is it that Jesus' contemporaries don't seem to have recognized the Exodus story as a fictional account based on some other story? What a modern rabbi might have to say is not relevant for how the text was understood by first-century Jews or Gentiles. Indeed, it seems rather odd that Josephus would rely upon what you consider total fiction in his efforts to defend the Jews as a noble and ancient race.Ken Litwak--- On Sun, 8/3/08, Gordon Raynal <scudi1@...> wrote:From: Gordon Raynal <scudi1@...>Subject: Re: [XTalk] Paul's silence on Jesus as miracle workerTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.comCc: "Michael Ensley" <mensley@...>Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 10:47 AMHi Ken,On Aug 3, 2008, at 1:48 AM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:>> .Ken:> Gordon, so you are basically saying, "I don't care that I'm > misusing a technical term ina way that no one else woudl support > and that therefore is of no value in communication. No matter who > objects to it, I'm going to do it anyway." Is that a fair > summary? Richard Hays in _Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of > Paul_ showed many years ago the problems of attaching the term > "midrash" even to Paul's explicit interpretations of Scripture. > FIrst, in that case, and in yours, it is grossly anachronistic. > "MIdrash" as an established technique is from the Rabbinica period, > after about 200 A.D., so far as we know. Second, "midrash" is a > form of interpretation, a way of explaining Scripture. There is no > evidence that it equals "taking elements fomr a biblcial narrative > and inventing a completely new narrative about something else out > of whole cloth." So when you use midrash to describe anything in > the gospels, it is simply invalid from a technical> point of view. Why do you insist on an invalid use of the word > "midrash"?You are correct, of course that midrash is a technical term that is related to what you speak of, but it is also a term that I have heard used many times to talk about the particular creative story telling process we find in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures themselves. Where did I hear that? Well, one place was at the local temple and in several lovely discussions of the creativity we find within Torah, itself, not to mention the rest of the Tanak. The rabbi and the 2 lay teachers (both college professor PhD's) freely used that term in regard to this particular kind of Hebraic/ Jewish story telling creativity. I think that is most appropriate and it is that that I've been talking about.>> On top of that, you have not actually pointed to any literature > contemporary with or prior to the gospels that share the same genre > (s) of bios or historiography that evince what you are suggesting. > You may not accept those genre identifications, but for example, I > have not seen anyone provide any evidence at all that meaningfully > challenges Richard Burrdige's demonstration from actual data (not > merely assertions) that Mark is an example of Greco-Roman Bios.Open the OT... there are a whole lot of stories to where you'll find exactly what I'm talking about. For a key one and I don't have time just now to do a verse by verse review of this and so will only give an off the top of the head response (and BTW... this is one of the things that aforementioned rabbi and teachers talked about), but the story of the escape from Egypt within those texts has a story of escaping slaves through the marsh land under YHWH Elohim's guidance, the Song of Miriam which adds the element of "horse and rider thrown into the sea," the ramping of this story to the whole text understanding of Moses with his Staff from God parting the waters, the Israelites safely marching through and then the Egyptians getting crushed. And then (again pardon my forgetting the dating) but the later rabbinic story that Moses didn't make for just one column of water to walk through, but rather God made for 12 columns, one for each tribe that is extra Torah text. That's a fine example of developmental creativity that is both behind and beyond the Exodus story. Fine by me, if you prefer using a different term for this kind of theological story creativity, but again the local rabbi was quite happy to use it.>> Third, as to the specifics of the Elijah-Elisha narratives > having parallels in the gospels. Thomas Brodie has demonstrated > this well in many places. However, an important point beyond or > next to his needs to be made.>> As many, such as Baumgarten or White have shown (White > especially), no one ever recounts history-as-it- happened. That's a > 19th centuiry myth invented by von Ranke and others of a Positivist > persuasion. Rather, we only ever write or read history-as-it- is- > narrated. When you connect this fact that hsitory is always and > only what is narrated in precisely the way an author wishes to > present it, and combine that with the fact Hellensitic > historiographers sought eagerly to both imitate those who came > before them and to show how those in their narratives were part of > peoples in the past (see works by Marincola, as well as The Past is > a Foreign Country), it is not at surprising that Luke, as one > example, would seek to show how Jesus of Nazareth was like Elijah > and Elisha in the past.All of this simply gets to our fundamental disagreement about what a narrative gospel is. You are obviously convinced by the authors you site that we're dealing with biography. Citing all these who convince you of this, does not convince me. I'm fine with disagreeing about this.>>> However, it is entirely possible, and indeed likely, from a > generic point of view (that is, the genre of Luke as Hellenisitic > historiography) , that Luke is only making those connections and > narrating them because that is how it happened so far as he > understood, as opposed to narrating other things he might have > known or oculd have chosen to say.>> You seem to be making the facile assumption, indeed, one might > say presupposing as an a priori, that because one or more elements > in the Scriptures of Israel are echoed in some manner in a gospel > narrative that htereore it os obvious that the gospel account is an > invention and the story recounts something that never happened. > You have not offered anything to support that, however, except your > repreated "I disagree." With all due respect, such an argument > would get a very poor grade from me if a student tried it. It > carries no weight with me certainly.For you this is "facile." So be it. Again, I'd just say open the OT and there are bucket loads of stories where one can discover this kind of creative theological story telling.Gordon RaynalInman, SC>> Ken Litwak>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Gordon Raynal
                                                        Hi Ken, ... Well, let me start here, as I haven t studied those other works, and simply make clear I don t think Mark or John are a bioi. ... G. Peter and
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Aug 9, 2008
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                                                          Hi Ken,
                                                          On Aug 9, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Ken Olson wrote:

                                                          >
                                                          > Hi Ken,
                                                          >
                                                          > I've had a lot of difficulty following many of the arguments about
                                                          > the gospels that are based on genre, so I'm hoping you can clarify
                                                          > a few points for me.
                                                          >
                                                          > First, don't we have a large number of ancient works that don't fit
                                                          > easily into any single established genre (i.e., a "pure" genre),
                                                          > such as Apuleius' Memorphosis or Philostratus' Life of Apollonius,
                                                          > for example?
                                                          > And don't a number of works borrow elements from other genres,
                                                          > such as Thucydides' use of diagnosis in his history or, in the
                                                          > gospels, Mark's use of apocalyptic in a bios (if the gospels are
                                                          > indeed bioi)?

                                                          Well, let me start here, as I haven't studied those other works, and
                                                          simply make clear I don't think Mark or John are a bioi.


                                                          > It seems to me that genre conventions were never rigidly
                                                          > maintained, or at least they were often crossed. Finally, what
                                                          > genre would some of the apocryphal works like the Gospel of Peter
                                                          > or the Infancy Gospel of Thomas belong to?

                                                          G. Peter and Inf. Thomas show the same kind of authorial creativity
                                                          we find in the canonical ones. One of the great things about the
                                                          discovery of those outside the canonical four is a greater breadth to
                                                          the creativity and a look at how long this creativity went on.
                                                          Against your good Duke professor and member of this list:)! I do
                                                          think there was a Q and Dr. K is right that we can identify layers in
                                                          that development. I also think G. Thomas is susceptible to the same
                                                          sort of analysis. I do think G. Mark is the first narrative Gospel
                                                          that we know of and I think 80 represents a good date for it.
                                                          Starting from there we have 2 other accepted texts that show the very
                                                          same creativity process quite alive and well! I think we can see in
                                                          and between texts this kind of creativity going on.

                                                          > Were their authors' literary geniuses doing something that had
                                                          > never been done before, or were they following some known generic
                                                          > conventions?

                                                          I think they are well described as literary geniuses. I think this
                                                          kind of story creativity had long and deep roots, generally in all
                                                          cultures, but specifically in the Hebrew Bible roots. The example I
                                                          offered "in text" is the creativity we see inside the Exodus escape
                                                          narrative. I continue to favor the call of this "midrash," because
                                                          it points to the core source stories and the way they were creatively
                                                          used.
                                                          >
                                                          > Best,

                                                          same to you,
                                                          Gordon Raynal
                                                          Inman, SC
                                                          >
                                                          > Ken
                                                          >
                                                          > Ken Olson, PhD Student, Duke University
                                                          >
                                                        • Rikk Watts
                                                          Jeffrey, Missed this... yes I m still alive (just got back from some months of travel, and a rollicking sail across the Pacific : ) ) I guess I d have to
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Sep 22, 2008
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                                                            Jeffrey,

                                                            Missed this... yes I'm still alive (just got back from some months of
                                                            travel, and a rollicking sail across the Pacific : ) )

                                                            I guess I'd have to think at what point in Paul's present letters he'd need
                                                            to do so. I.e. he appeals to his own wonder working, but not that often, and
                                                            usually in response to challenges to the authenticity of his apostleship.
                                                            That being so, I guess we'd expect some comment re Jesus' mighty deeds in a
                                                            similar situation. I can't think of any place in the Pauline materials where
                                                            he is defending Jesus.

                                                            Regards
                                                            Rikk


                                                            On 29/07/08 1:40 PM, "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...> wrote:

                                                            > To my knowledge Paul, who appeals to miracles he performed in his
                                                            > communities as attestations to the power of the Gospel, never speaks of
                                                            > any miracles that Jesus wrought, or of Jesus as a miracle worker. Am I
                                                            > correct in thinking that this is the case?
                                                            >
                                                            > And if it is, how is Paul's silence on this matter to be explained?
                                                            >
                                                            > Yours,
                                                            >
                                                            > Jeffrey
                                                          • Darrell Bock
                                                            Jeffrey: A thought to add to Rikk s response. The issue of the miracles was to attest to Jesus. The resurrection came to take that role in a comprehensive way,
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Sep 23, 2008
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                                                              Jeffrey:

                                                              A thought to add to Rikk's response. The issue of the miracles was to
                                                              attest to Jesus. The resurrection came to take that role in a
                                                              comprehensive way, since not only was it seen as God's vote, but
                                                              placed Jesus at God's side. As such it trumped everything else. Even
                                                              more fascinating is that Paul proclaims Jesus' role in creation (1 Cor
                                                              8:4-6; Col 1:15-20). One might call that a miracle. My point is that
                                                              the transcendent aspects of Jesus dominate Paul's presentation.


                                                              Darrell Bock
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