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RE: [XTalk] Digest Number 2436

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  • David Hindley
    Steve, Are you referring to Crossan s _Birth of Christianity_? Eight years ago, Crosstalk2 sponsored a seminar with J D Crossan after the publication of his
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 22, 2008
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      Steve,

      Are you referring to Crossan's _Birth of Christianity_? Eight years ago, Crosstalk2 sponsored a seminar with J D Crossan after the
      publication of his book:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hjmaterialsmethodolgy/

      What I did then was obtain copies of many of the principal books he cited, and then checked out each citation to see if the source
      *really* said what Crossan implied it did. There were several posts on that archival list, which are open to the public for
      browsing, in which I outlined a number of inconsistencies between his statements and what these sources said.

      The primary sources he cited for his hybrid "Lenski-Kautsky" model were:

      Lenski, Gerhard E., _Power & Privilege: A Theory of Social Stratification_ (Univ. of North Carolina Press, 1966 hb, 1984 pb, 495
      pp.). Lenski is notable for emphasizing the manner by which elite classes tend to extract the agricultural surpluses produced by
      peasant classes.

      Kautsky, John H., _The Politics of Aristocratic Empires_ (Univ. of North Carolina Press, 1982, 414 pp.). This latter book is on the
      socialist side of interpretation.

      While the following author was mentioned in another context, I found one of his uncited books to be very educational and even
      brilliant in many ways:

      Ste. Croix, G. E. M. de, _The Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World: From the Archaic Age to the Arab Conquests_ (Cornell Univ.
      Press, 1981, 731 pp.). This author is also socialist in ideology, although he is not so harsh in his judgment of the exploitative
      relationship between classes as the above two can be. Economic stress did not become universally bad until about the 4th century.

      In this seminar I expressed my opinion that Crossan had overstated the exploitation expressed by the first two authors, and makes
      little or no reference to additional statements, often on the very same pages he quotes from Kautsky and Lenski, that qualify the
      statements that are quoted.

      Since then I also found the following works, which deal with agrarian land tenancy, helpful:

      Scott, James C., _The Moral Economy of the Peasant: Rebellion and Subsistence in Southeast Asia_ (Yale Univ. Press, 1976, 246 pp.).
      This is notable for descriptions of numerous land tenancy models found in early modern and modern Southeast Asia, many of which are
      similar to those in use in the Roman ANE in the 1st century CE. Each model had different implications for the farmer AND the
      landlord, depending on whether the growing conditions were good or bad in any one year. Reading Scott helped me reinterpret a
      situation described by de Ste Croix in which a Roman town in the midst of a famine forcibly took all of the food grain produced by
      the town's tenant farmers and left them literally eating grass. De Ste Croix understood this as an extreme case of exploitation of
      ANE peasants in Roman times. Scott had noted that one certain type of tenancy arrangement calls for a fixed volume of grain "rent"
      to be required of farmers, regardless of conditions of harvest. I realized that this was what seems to have happened to the peasants
      of that Roman town. The town demanded, and eventually took by force, the full volume of grain demanded by the rental agreement.
      Ironically, this type of lease actually is significantly to the tenant's favor in productive years. So, was it really exploitation,
      or the natural consequence of a bad agricultural cycle? Kind of puts a different spin on things.

      Pastor, Jack, _Land and Economy in Ancient Palestine_ (Routledge, 1997, 281 pp.) Discusses the role land plays in an ancient
      economy, famine, diet, population, size of plots, and land uses, and covers these issues from Persian to Roman periods (up to Bar
      Kochba). Provides good descriptions of the known and presumed land tenancy relationships between the kings who ruled in these
      regions and the subjects who were ruled by them. Forget almost all modern notions you have about land "ownership". The king rules
      all land he "conquers" absolutely, assuming direct control over a large portion of it, and granting rights of use to other portions
      of it, mainly to his key officials and the elite classes who agree to respect and obey him. Virtually everyone else is a tenant
      farmer on estates controlled by one of the above two categories of "owner". Rulers can and did replace elites or change the terms of
      their rights to use lands at his whim, usually dependant on how well they served him.

      Fiensy, David A., _The Social History of Palestine in the Herodian Period_ (Edwin Mellen Press, 1991, 195 pp.) Especially
      interesting for descriptions of the vast array of royal estates and other large estates operated by the Jewish aristocracy
      throughout the regions formerly ruled by Herod the Great, the life situation for various landed and landless peasants, then provides
      descriptions of various peasant household and village arrangements known from archeology.

      These voices suggest that the situation for the average peasant wasn't quite as bad as everyone wants to think. One picture is
      unique, though:

      Udoh, Fabian E., _To Caesar What Is Caesar’s: Tribute, Taxes, and Imperial Administration in Early Roman Palestine 63 B.C.E.–70
      C.E._ (Brown Judaic Studies, 2005, 350 pp.). I have not read this one, but have read the doctoral dissertation upon which it is
      based: _Tribute & Taxes in Early Roman Palestine (63 BCE-70 CE): The Evidence from Josephus_, (Fabian E Udoh, 1996; UNI Dissertation
      Services, 2000 352 pp.). Herod the Great actually benefited the subjects of his realm, generating a substantial rise in the standard
      of living. Roman tax policy was usually quite progressive and tended to adapt taxation to fit the traditional modes of life and
      exchange in a region. It was only in the time of the Roman civil war that some Roman generals made repeated ruinous exactions of
      hard cash from the provincials.
      http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/5210_5485.pdf

      I cannot think, off hand, what Meier or Sanders might have said about these subjects. I don't believe that land tenancy
      relationships and economy in general were their main concerns.

      Respectfully,

      Dave Hindley
      Newton Falls, Ohio USA


      -----Original Message-----
      1a. Lenski
      Posted by: "Steven Deedon" stevendeedon@... stevendeedon
      Date: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:32 pm ((PDT))

      I'm looking for help reading the Lenski-influenced camp (e.g., Crossan) against the more conservative -- Meier and Sanders, e.g.,
      who claim the the economics of Galilee weren't so oppressive. Any suggestions?

      Steve

      Steven Deedon
      New Haven, CT
    • Graham Twelftree
      Friends: I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann. I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in the New
      Message 2 of 7 , May 2, 2008
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        Friends:

        I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

        "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

        Can anyone help me?

        Thanks,

        Graham Twelftree


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • goranson@duke.edu
        Page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1972; trans. John Marsh). Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        Message 3 of 7 , May 2, 2008
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          Page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
          Blackwell,
          1972; trans. John Marsh).
          Stephen Goranson
          http://www.duke.edu/~goranson

          Quoting Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...>:

          > Friends:
          >
          > I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.
          >
          > "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the
          > contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on
          > the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the
          > other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in
          > which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role,
          > should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape
          > the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."
          >
          > Can anyone help me?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Graham Twelftree
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Graham Twelftree
          My thanks, indeed. From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of goranson@duke.edu Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:20 PM To:
          Message 4 of 7 , May 2, 2008
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            My thanks, indeed.
            From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of goranson@...
            Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:20 PM
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [XTalk] Bultmann quote


            Page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
            Blackwell,
            1972; trans. John Marsh).
            Stephen Goranson
            http://www.duke.edu/~goranson

            Quoting Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...<mailto:grahtwe%40regent.edu>>:

            > Friends:
            >
            > I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.
            >
            > "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the
            > contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on
            > the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the
            > other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in
            > which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role,
            > should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape
            > the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."
            >
            > Can anyone help me?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Graham Twelftree
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Isn t that from the History of the Synoptic Tradition? I m not sure from where, though, for I can t locate my copy. Jeffery Hodges Graham Twelftree
            Message 5 of 7 , May 2, 2008
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              Isn't that from the History of the Synoptic Tradition? I'm not sure from where, though, for I can't locate my copy.

              Jeffery Hodges

              Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...> wrote:
              Friends:

              I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

              "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

              Can anyone help me?

              Thanks,

              Graham Twelftree


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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              University Degrees:

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Email Address:

              jefferyhodges@...

              Blog:

              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

              Office Address:

              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              School of English, Kyung Hee University
              1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
              Seoul, 130-701
              South Korea

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
              Sangbong-dong 1
              Jungnang-gu
              Seoul 131-771
              South Korea

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Graham Twelftree
              Hi Jeff, Thanks. Stephen Goranson tracked it down to page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1972; trans. John Marsh).
              Message 6 of 7 , May 2, 2008
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                Hi Jeff,

                Thanks. Stephen Goranson tracked it down to page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
                Blackwell, 1972; trans. John Marsh).

                http://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/faculty_staff/twelftree.shtml
                From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:39 PM
                To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [XTalk] Bultmann quote


                Isn't that from the History of the Synoptic Tradition? I'm not sure from where, though, for I can't locate my copy.

                Jeffery Hodges

                Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...<mailto:grahtwe%40regent.edu>> wrote:
                Friends:

                I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

                "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

                Can anyone help me?

                Thanks,

                Graham Twelftree

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

                To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:crosstalk2-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>

                To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:crosstalk2-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>

                List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com<mailto:crosstalk2-owners%40yahoogroups.com>

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                University Degrees:

                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                Email Address:

                jefferyhodges@...<mailto:jefferyhodges%40yahoo.com>

                Blog:

                http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                Office Address:

                Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                School of English, Kyung Hee University
                1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                Seoul, 130-701
                South Korea

                Home Address:

                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                Sangbong-dong 1
                Jungnang-gu
                Seoul 131-771
                South Korea

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Yes, I noticed that after my post. Thanks. Jeffery Hodges Graham Twelftree wrote: Hi Jeff, Thanks. Stephen Goranson tracked it down to
                Message 7 of 7 , May 2, 2008
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                  Yes, I noticed that after my post. Thanks.

                  Jeffery Hodges

                  Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...> wrote:
                  Hi Jeff,

                  Thanks. Stephen Goranson tracked it down to page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
                  Blackwell, 1972; trans. John Marsh).

                  http://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/faculty_staff/twelftree.shtml
                  From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:39 PM
                  To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [XTalk] Bultmann quote


                  Isn't that from the History of the Synoptic Tradition? I'm not sure from where, though, for I can't locate my copy.

                  Jeffery Hodges

                  Graham Twelftree > wrote:
                  Friends:

                  I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

                  "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

                  Can anyone help me?

                  Thanks,

                  Graham Twelftree

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

                  To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  University Degrees:

                  Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                  (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                  M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                  B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                  Email Address:

                  jefferyhodges@...

                  Blog:

                  http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                  Office Address:

                  Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  School of English, Kyung Hee University
                  1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                  Seoul, 130-701
                  South Korea

                  Home Address:

                  Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                  Sangbong-dong 1
                  Jungnang-gu
                  Seoul 131-771
                  South Korea

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                  ------------------------------------

                  The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

                  To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com

                  Yahoo! Groups Links






                  University Degrees:

                  Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                  (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                  M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                  B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                  Email Address:

                  jefferyhodges@...

                  Blog:

                  http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                  Office Address:

                  Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  School of English, Kyung Hee University
                  1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                  Seoul, 130-701
                  South Korea

                  Home Address:

                  Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                  Sangbong-dong 1
                  Jungnang-gu
                  Seoul 131-771
                  South Korea

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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